It's Happened!

[PaulineMi]

Liz!!!!   Lol.

I wouldn't try acid but peat is on the agenda. I use it in my wild cross angels tank.

Forgot to add that the eggs were gone when I did this evening's water change.

[Frank The Plumber]

I used acids to drop the PH to below  5  to cure the angelfish and Discus virus in them. Mostly  Wild Tefe Greens imported in the late 90's. The fish were black and sloughing and bacterial infections were eating them alive. The wholesaler had them in 7.6 PH and potassium permanganate. In three days I had them happy and eating again at a PH of 4.8 to 5.2 using phosphoric. Long term I would not do it, it's bad long term.  Any fish that can go into very low PH can be cured of almost anything. You have to be real careful but you can cure some brutal stuff. I kept the Tefe's for about 3 years trying to spawn them. I used RO and the Kent line of products to keep them happy. They had a group ofPigeon Bloods and those were in bad shape too so I took those, put them in the acid cure deal with the Tefe's and the pigeons came out of it well. During the cure a pair bonded and spawned. The fry went free swimming and were doing really well in this acid bath. I brought the pigeons back into manageable water and sold the pair and 30 or so fry.

I would buy all of the Discus and altums from a wholesaler that were broken down, he would throw them away in the trash so I would give him $50 or so for 20 or 30 wilds or Domestics in bad shape.The fish actually had a stink to them.  I would take them home rehabilitate them and within a month sell them at my shop.

[PaulineMi]

That is really cool Frank! 

[LizStreithorst]

I had forgotten about that method, Frank.  But back when I got into Discus in 2001 I remember an importer telling me about curing fish by dropping the pH.  He said that he waited for the fish to break down and then gradually started lowering the pH.  I knew nothing back then and he didn't mention using acid, but how else could anyone get the pH down so low?  I wonder if one could cure a fish with an internal bacterial infection of the guts with that method...a fish that won't eat and has intractable white poo that metro won't cure.  Do you know?

Thanks for the excellent information.  I won't forget it again.  These days the fish supplied by reputable importers are squeaky clean, thank God.  With Asian fish it's taken care of by the exporter.  German fish sometimes come in with parasites but they are the usual suspects and easily dealt with.  I hear, but don't know, that wilds should 'most always be treated as a matter of course unless the importer does it for you.

[Mugwump]

I had forgotten about that method, Frank.  But back when I got into Discus in 2001 I remember an importer telling me about curing fish by dropping the pH.  He said that he waited for the fish to break down and then gradually started lowering the pH.  I knew nothing back then and he didn't mention using acid, but how else could anyone get the pH down so low?  I wonder if one could cure a fish with an internal bacterial infection of the guts with that method...a fish that won't eat and has intractable white poo that metro won't cure.  Do you know?

Thanks for the excellent information.  I won't forget it again.  These days the fish supplied by reputable importers are squeaky clean, thank God.  With Asian fish it's taken care of by the exporter.  German fish sometimes come in with parasites but they are the usual suspects and easily dealt with.  I hear, but don't know, that wilds should 'most always be treated as a matter of course unless the importer does it for you.

  You must also remember to drop that PH 'slowly'.....otherwise there'll be no need to treat...the fish is a goner.....treatment, and acclimation, go hand in hand...

[Frank The Plumber]

I have done it maybe 60 times using a 75 gallon tank with the water they are accustomed to. I put an over flow box on the tank and set up an RO unit to discharge product directly into the 75 gallon tank at a rate of about 3 gallons per hour. I would take either phosphoric acid or muriatic acid and mix a gallon of acid into a container and get a PH of 3 using RO. My base TDS would be 220 to250 my PH 7.8 to 8.0. I would let the TDS level drop to around 150 or so using the flow through from the RO. This occurs at around 12 to 15 hours I continue the RO flow and ready an acid solution drip through a tube that goes into the bottom waters of the tank. My target is 6.0Ph first. This target can be achieved fairly quickly without a lot of stress. Once my TDS is around 50 to 75 I begin acid introduction. TDS of 50 to 75 and a PH of 7.8 I continue the RO drip throughout the first hours of acid introduction. The skimmer will pull off the floculants from the top waters. I want to get to 6.0 PH in 12 more hours. Usually the mixed gallon of acid at 3 PH is used up in the first 4 hours and two more are added to get to 6PH. From 7.8 to 6 PH in 12 to 18 hours first level. At this point the TDS level will be going higher from the acid component. Your PH is 6 your TDS right around 250 to 300 but as discussed this TDS is a non conductive mineral type reading.

The next level is where you must be very patient from 6.0 PH to 5.2PH. As we get to this level we start to change the characteristics of the water. Ammonia goes non toxic in this range and the biological bacteria begin to die off. We must now slow every thing down to a crawl and become very deliberate and do a lot more monitoring. This next phase should take 36 to 48 hours. We pull our acid drip down to a lot less. Ideally we would like to drop one unit say 6.0 to 5.9 every 2 to  3 hours on average. As we go deeper into the depths we slow it down farther 4 to 5 hours per unit under 5.5 PH. We do not feed much at ll this low. Only what the fish might eat in 30 seconds or so, in most cases your fish are dark clamped and not eating. Right in the range of around 5.5 to 5.6 you will notice that the fish become invigorated. This is the thresh hold. Most of the stuff attacking them suddenly has died along with the bio. Some of the stuff that hangs on will still be around and if you do not see a drastic improvement at 5.5 continue lower. Most wilds need to go deep into acid, the deeper the slower. You can and usually will be adding RO doses to do minor water changes as you progress. If there is debris you remove it by siphon and allow the RO to fill the tank via drip. The RO will need very little acid to pull it down to the levels you are at, you still need to monitor this. I have gone to 4.8 4.9 Ph on Wilds, the TDS ends up around 700 to 800 from the acid. It can lower as RO is added and the acid is pulled out. You only want to stay there a week or so. After 3 or 4 days at sub 5 ph your fish will look amazingly better or be dead, either or. Once they look better, unclamped color coming back, eating very lightly we climb to a holding PH of around 5.3 or 5.4. We do this by adding RO and not adding the acid or by dripping in very low amounts of tap water through a bottle similar to our acid drip bottle. We would like to take two days to climb from 4.9 to 5.3. We want to hold the here for 5 days or so. See if they continue to improve. We can decide at this point if we wish to go back to a high PH of 7.8 or do a modified permanent lowPH. If we go to 7.8 we do so by increasing one unit every 8 hours max. Go up 4 units and hold for 24 hours to observe. If ee use modified water we do so very gradually. At 5.4 PH we place in an established sponge or two,, at 5.6 we place in another, at 5.8 another, we then pull the 5.4 sponge and add another seeded one at 6.2 and another at around 6.4 In this way we catch our ammonia toxin point. We monitor the ammonia the whole way through and we keep all debris at a minimum.

Domestic scalares do not take this, they usually pass away prior to the bacteria being destroyed. Altums and upper river species may take this, you have to watch them carefully. If at any point in time the fish become panicked looking they are in trouble, you need to slowly carefully back off and slightly raise the PH. Pause it, if they begin to heal, hold it there if they do not heal and are not panicked continue down.

For internal junk, generally there is a point of no return. Autopsies show that if a fish still has discharge from the anus that the anus is still intact as well as the intestines. In most cases when the intestines swell it is due to a secondary bacterial infection which causes the intestines to gas. As they gas they block. Once blocked the bacteria seem to consume the intestinal walls and the bacteria breaches the gut, destroys it and enters the abdomen where it eats all of the internal organs. Most bloated fish are already internally dead. The PH drop method can work on the protozoans that cause this if caught early enough, it works on most of the worms flagelates and other junk that bothers them. This method does seem to stop hole in the head as well although i have never used it specifically for that.

The first couple of times I did this I lost a few fish but they would not have made it anyway. After a couple of times you go on auto pilot. You need really good equipment as far as monitoring stuff goes. All digital and decent quality.

[Mugwump]

Interestimg methodology, what to you use for the drip system?...just airline and a valve?...and true on the domestic scalare, I've heard that they don't do well at extreme lower PH's..Is there any other effect on the slime coat too, or does the coloring change serve as a real stress indicator?..you mentioned "darkened and clamped fins"...
Did you increase heat and aeration?...or is this done at regular 80+ normal temps?.....I know that heat can eliminate some vermin...and cooler temps can affect other baddies....

nice explanation...thanks

[PaulineMi]

 So let's see if I understand correctly....

A very high TDS reading with low EC reflects an environment that is conducive to hatching.

A high TDS rating with a high EC reading indicates that there are solids of a high molecular weight ("bad solids" for breeding purposes) and the eggs will harden.

It's all about the type of solids,  right?

[BallAquatics]

That's fascinating stuff Frank.  Thanks for going into the details.

Dennis

[Frank The Plumber]

Generally a high TDS reading is a high TDS reading. It should be avoided. The reason the Discus pros don't like the acid is because it can cause problems. It makes nutritional minerals hard to add and hard for the fish to obtain. The acid reacts with all of the vital minerals as it does with the other stuff in the water. This seems to deplete the fish over time and cause problems with function etc. The max amount of time I ever kept fish in this acid was around 60 days. I usually keep the temps at around 84 for discus in this acid set up. If they are looking like there is a problem in the gut I will push up the temp over 92F to kill protozoans. I use a drip system with SS valving and the siliconized tubing. I change the tubing after each usage , the acid eats it a bit.

The eggs are sensitive to the calcium and not so much the other minerals. The coat on the fish which is essential to fry rearing is not so sensitive to the acid in terms of detection. This is just a false comfort really. The acid is not good for the fish long term. It just gives them a chance while it kills all of the junk on them. That is why you have to climb so slowly, as you go back up you introduce bacteria back into the game. Good bacters , bad bacters, the whole range. You have to climb slow so the PH does not shock them and so you get a balance in the bacteria population. If you climb too fast the bugs population explodes and it attacks them again fast. It can be really tricky.

[Mugwump]

Generally a high TDS reading is a high TDS reading. It should be avoided. The reason the Discus pros don't like the acid is because it can cause problems. It makes nutritional minerals hard to add and hard for the fish to obtain. The acid reacts with all of the vital minerals as it does with the other stuff in the water. This seems to deplete the fish over time and cause problems with function etc. The max amount of time I ever kept fish in this acid was around 60 days. I usually keep the temps at around 84 for discus in this acid set up. If they are looking like there is a problem in the gut I will push up the temp over 92F to kill protozoans. I use a drip system with SS valving and the siliconized tubing. I change the tubing after each usage , the acid eats it a bit.

The eggs are sensitive to the calcium and not so much the other minerals. The coat on the fish which is essential to fry rearing is not so sensitive to the acid in terms of detection. This is just a false comfort really. The acid is not good for the fish long term. It just gives them a chance while it kills all of the junk on them. That is why you have to climb so slowly, as you go back up you introduce bacteria back into the game. Good bacters , bad bacters, the whole range. You have to climb slow so the PH does not shock them and so you get a balance in the bacteria population. If you climb too fast the bugs population explodes and it attacks them again fast. It can be really tricky.

Thanks for the explaination....it makes sense....

[PaulineMi]

I'm slow.....

Tannic acid - high TDS, low EC.

My well water - high TDS and assuming high EC due to carbonates.

So why would all high TDS have to be avoided if adding peat, catalpa leaves and driftwood is a good thing yet they increase TDS?

[Frank The Plumber]

The source and composure of the acid agent being used to exchange or bind the conductive minerals is different if the source is from a manufactured acid versus an organic natural acid source.

[LizStreithorst]

For internal junk, generally there is a point of no return. Autopsies show that if a fish still has discharge from the anus that the anus is still intact as well as the intestines. In most cases when the intestines swell it is due to a secondary bacterial infection which causes the intestines to gas. As they gas they block. Once blocked the bacteria seem to consume the intestinal walls and the bacteria breaches the gut, destroys it and enters the abdomen where it eats all of the internal organs. Most bloated fish are already internally dead. The PH drop method can work on the protozoans that cause this if caught early enough, it works on most of the worms flagelates and other junk that bothers them. This method does seem to stop hole in the head as well although i have never used it specifically for that.

That's what I wanted to know.  Thanks.  I screwed up some good fish over a period of many months to the point that I had to net them out and slap them on the concrete.  The damage was done over a long period of time and lowering the pH wouldn't have helped.  I paid a hard price for not having seen the obvious.  It was Barb who made me see my stupidity.

Have you ever dealt with Cryptobia?  I have.  One smart guy, John Nicholson, cured his fish using dimetridazole, a drug used in pigeons.  This was a long time ago.  These days imports come in clean, but you never know...He's the only one I know who ever cured it.  He even wrote an article.  I tried.  Perhaps my fish had been infected for too long...Do you think that if caught early it could be cured by taking the pH really low?

Do you use a fish lab or do you figure out this stuff yourself?

[Frank The Plumber]

My knowledge came from Schlingmann the guy who developed the Schlingmann Red Line. He had sent a bunch of fish to the guy who called himself the Discus Expert, Gotehard. The Germans had been using this method quite a bit. In a situation in which the disease is caused by a viral, most virals use a break down of secondary immunity to expand into the host. The fish gets weakened and the secondaries kill it. If this stuff is a viral it will not be able to break the fish down as easily. Stuff like angel and Discus plague would kill the fish before it had a chance to develop anti bodies to the virus. Given time the fish would become immune to the plague. They would not be carriers, I tested this, cured fish when placed into a tank with unexposed fish would not expose the clean fish. Hard to say without having an infected fish and going through the process. of exactly what this will clear up.