It's Happened!

[PaulineMi]

Thank you.

[PaulineMi]

The guys down in Chicago raise em in 8.0 ph....who knows???

It's all about which minerals are in the water and in what form more that it's about pH.  I have gH 0, kH 4.5, pH 7.2.  I should be able to breed in that water, but I can't.  I tried peat before I invested in an RO unit.  I got wigglers using peat.  I didn't have a meter at the time.  I know that peat raises the TDS.  I bet that it lowers electric conductivity.  Do we have any water experts here?

Hmmm....I didn't realize that peat raises TDS.  I have a TDS in the high 300s.  My blackwater tank must be sky high as I add peat in the filter along with the wood and almond leaves.

Liz I'm sure Frank will chime in on your water questions with a thorough explanation.  I'd too would like to know what's what regarding what you wrote.

[LizStreithorst]

Are they still guarding the eggs Pauline?  Did they eat them right a way or did they wait a couple of days until they knew that they would not hatch due to the hard water?

[PaulineMi]

The eggs are all white now but they are still guarding them. The female is fierce about it, the male is a bit more mellow and will leave the area to eat.

[BillT]

I know that peat raises the TDS.  I bet that it lowers electric conductivity.

This is an interesting conjecture so I looked a few things up:

This involves solutions (molecules dissolved in water) and charges on molecules in the solutions.

Several websites say peat acts as to soften water by an ion exchange mechanism and in the process releases tannic acids (as the ion exchanged for the hardness ions removed). I did not realize this was its mechanism of action.
This should mean that for each charged molecule (ions are molecules that have a charge associated with them, usually due to losing a H⁺ or OH^- when dissolved in water of hardness removed from the water, the peat will release a equivalent amount of charge as tannic acid. This is how a residential water softener works except that it will be usually releasing sodium chloride (NaCl) into the water in exchange for the carbonate.

Wikipedia says that at least one version of tannic acid has a molecular weight of 1,701.20 g/mole.
A carbonate molecule has a molecular weight of about 60.1 g/mole.
The molecular weight reflects the mass (weight) of a single molecule. The larger the molecular weight, the mole each molecule will add to the total dissolved solids.
The ratio of the molecular weights of tannic acid to carbonate acid is about 1700/60 = 28.333.

Assuming that the hardness being removed is in the form of carbonate, then peat should increase the total dissolved solids (total weight of all the dissolved materials in the water) while lowering the hardness and adding a weak acid to the water (the tannic acids) while removing the carbonate (a somewhat basic buffer).

Electrical conductivity (the charge carrying capacity of the water) is determined by a number of factors. Pure water by itself is a poor conductor and will have a very low conductivity. Conductivity is increased when charged molecules are dissolved in the water. Each charged molecule caries a charge along he path between the electrodes of the measuring device. The total of these charges moving between the two electrodes makes a current that the instrument measures.  The higher concentration (or number per volume) of charged molecules in the water that can carry an electric charge, the greater the conductivity. But also the greater the mobility of the individual charge carrying molecules the greater the conductivity. A very large molecule (like tannic acid) will not move very fast so that it will not conduct much charge in a given period of time.

This process should also result in a reduced conductivity if tannic acid is replacing a lighter more mobile charge carrying molecule like carbonate.

[LizStreithorst]

The eggs are all white now but they are still guarding them. The female is fierce about it, the male is a bit more mellow and will leave the area to eat.

That is fabulous news.  First timers usually do dumb stuff.  Yours have it together.  All they need is good water.  Why not give peat a try just to see what happens?  You have never lived until you've seen the tiny babies eating from the sides of the parents.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks for the explanation, Bill.  TDS and EC aren't as closely related as people think.  At least it's not always a simple formula, that the meters use to convert from one to the other.

[BallAquatics]

TDS and EC aren't as closely related as people think.

I always though TDS and EC were related just like Metric and U.S. Customary System Measurement..... we use our antiquated system and the rest of the world has moved on to something better.  LOL

Dennis

[PaulineMi]

The eggs are all white now but they are still guarding them. The female is fierce about it, the male is a bit more mellow and will leave the area to eat.

That is fabulous news.  First timers usually do dumb stuff.  Yours have it together.  All they need is good water.  Why not give peat a try just to see what happens?  You have never lived until you've seen the tiny babies eating from the sides of the parents.

I think there are still some eggs that haven't turned white! They're hard to see because they're more around the side of the pot that faces the back of the tank. Perhaps that's why she's staying so protective of the area. I tried taking close up photos but the female gets conflicted between "fight or flight" bless her heart. She even attacked the syphon hose this morning. She's so dedicated I really don't want to stress her.

So....in the event wigglers appear should I just put a divider in the tank? 

[LizStreithorst]

It rarely works no matter what kind of divider you use.  I'd let nature run it's course and then put them in thier own love nest

[BillT]

At least it's not always a simple formula, that the meters use to convert from one to the other.

Yes this is correct Liz.
You could use a simple formula only if the ions (salts and other charged molecules in the water) were always in the same ratios.
If those ratios change, then the indirect relationship to other measurements (like TDS or salinity) are only approximate.

[PaulineMi]

It rarely works no matter what kind of divider you use.  I'd let nature run it's course and then put them in thier own love nest

Ok. Sounds good. Thanks.

[Frank The Plumber]

Bills explanation is excellent.

The acid causes an oxidation of any metallic component or a binding of any mineral component that can be reacted upon. The acid or the oxidized material having reacted with organic matter should not be conductive or far less conductive than the base element.

A steel pipe is conductive, A rusted steel pipe is a lot less conductive.

In order to drop PH really low I used phosphoric acid. I had a low ph of 5.5 but a TDS reading of 900. I had a spawn of Discus raise fry in this. My conductivity readings were about 1/3 of what they had been prior to using the acid. I think that was the key. I would try using either peat or oak leaves for natural acids. You could use a conductivity meter to see what happens. You might get lucky and only need to use organics to bind the stuff in your water.

[PaulineMi]

Thanks for the info.

I'm thinking pretty hard about the "peat experiment".  I have nothing to lose if it doesn't work out because I don't have a yearning desire to breed these guys. However if it works out it will be fun. Even if my pretty discus end up in brown water.

So now it's on to learning about conductivity in water and getting a conductivity meter.  Google here I come....after I reread Frank's and Bill's posts a few more times.

And Liz...thanks for nudging me into the discus world.  Not only are the fish really cool, so is gaining additional knowledge of what I used to think was "just water". 

[LizStreithorst]

Pauline, I so want you to give it a try.  BTW, all Discus LOVE tea colored water from peat.  Something in it just makes them feel good.

The Discus people recommend that you not use acid.  There is too much potential for harm if you don't know exactly what you're doing.  Frank, if you'd like to cause a stir, join Simply and post about your success breeding using phosphoric acid.  They'll be on you like fire ants on a bare foot, but the Mama Bear will be by your side.  Please do it.  It's been years since I've had any fun on Simply.