Silvers====>

[Mugwump]

Anyone raising Silvers?.....I have a few and I'm looking to outcross to a different line. I'll be crossing mine with some F2 Manacapuru to 'punch' the genes up some...but would like to then go back with a pure Silver, if available...??

[BallAquatics]

Hey Jon, are silvers just standard angel fish - like the wild type?  There are so many names and varieties any more you need a score sheet to keep track.

Dennis

[Mugwump]

Hey Jon, are silvers just standard angel fish - like the wild type?  There are so many names and varieties any more you need a score sheet to keep track.

Dennis

Right you are, Dennis....but I'm just looking for any that may be put there. My wild crosses will give me what I want...but still looking for available stock....   +/+....most carry a gold now days....I'm want to take that out.....

[Jdmcfast]

Does it take more than 2 generations to get rid of the gold?

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[LizStreithorst]

How many thousands would you like,Mug.?  I have a bunch just now reaching breeding age.  Mine are have half black blood, though.  I have seperated the ones that are expressing from the ones that aren't.  I can snap some pics this afternoon if you think you might be interested.

[Mugwump]

Does it take more than 2 generations to get rid of the gold?

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Josh...
Gold is a recessive gene and takes two copies to express...in single dose (het)..it's very hard to spot, if at all...two generations will work..but selection is the key(if you get lucky)....so it might take more if the wrong matches are made. I'd use two, maybe three pairs and then hope one doesn't pop golds down the line...so verifying could very well take 3-4 generations..??
.........
Liz...a half black wouldn't be any easier to spot...it's a recessive gene too...

[Jdmcfast]

I knew it was recessive and that it can prevent/block certain other phenotypes from expressing, does the gold gene help with any phenotypes other than a typical double dose gold?
I hope that makes sense:o
I really wish I had a better understanding of the genetics but I think it's just gonna take time.

[Mugwump]

I knew it was recessive and that it can prevent/block certain other phenotypes from expressing, does the gold gene help with any phenotypes other than a typical double dose gold?
I hope that makes sense:o
I really wish I had a better understanding of the genetics but I think it's just gonna take time.

Yes, double dose gold blocks/masks the expression of Silver and Zebra,etc...

[BillT]

There are two ways remove a recessive from a population rapidly:

1) the Lucky Cross method Jon described: do several crosses and by chance one or more may be among non-carriers of the recessive.

In a population from a cross of two heterozygous parents 1/4 of the offspring would be non-carriers, so 1 in 4 fish should be non-carriers.
To get two fish from such a population that are non-carriers, the odds would be 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/16 (0.25 x 0.25 = 0.0625).
Note that this is a statistical prediction and does not assure that if you make 16 crosses, you will get what you want. The bigger your sample size the more likely you will get the results you want. On the other hand you could luck out.

For a population derived from a non-carrier and a heterozygous carrier: the odds will be much better:
1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 (0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25)

2) Test Crosses: I am big on this approach, but it works best with fish that breed easily, promiscuously, and often (such as zebrafish). It is also easiest when you are looking for a trait that shows up early so you don't have to grow the fish for many months in order to score the trait.

You need one or more fish of known genetics carrying the recessive.
Cross the fish to the fish with the unknown genetics. Keep the unknown parent isolated so you can recover it later if it is
Raise the offspring. If any offspring show the recessive trait, you don't want to use the tested parent. If no offspring show the trait, the parent being tested are not carrying the recessive which should be revealed in 1/2 of the offspring.

This would take a lot of work, several tanks to keep the parents isolated, or a marking system to ID particular parents in a mixed population, or really knowing what your individual fish look like.
Also, it may not be a good option with fish that pair up rather than breeding with whoever is around.

If the gold color is possible but difficult to distinguish as a het, you might be able to accentuate it by:
a) feeding with particular foods to bring out the color in question, or
b) either illuminate the fish with specific colors of light that could make the gold color stand out better, or viewing the fish illuminated in white light through a color filter.

[LizStreithorst]

Well, I do have a couple of tank bred Peruvians I could let you have, Mug.  I only have 4.  I promised 1 to a guy I'm sending some Half Blacks to, and I want to keep one to cross with my Plats.  They are adults but I've seen no breeding activity.  They came from Angels Plus as babies.  I also have a male Zebra from Angels Plus.  Judging by his offspring he carries some wild blood.  He's getting a little long in the thooth, though.

[Mugwump]

Let me see how many of the fry are Silver(Manacapuru) from the batch from my vid....then I'll have an idea what I have to work with.....thanks, Liz...I may want a Peruvian from you...??

[LizStreithorst]

Just say the word, Mug.  Let me know if and when you want pics.