BSP x Pinoy

[Mugwump]

At this time, using the parents genes that was posted initially...Male (D/g pb/pb bg/bg) and Female (D/+ pb/pb +/bg)....and looking at the phenotypes of spawns that I have....I don't see anything that was not expected. I didn't see any odd-looking fish so far.

Since I really have not seen any postings also on the fry phenotype, this is why I asked Raiko's input on what kind of fry I have. I'm sure those color/phenotype varieties I have is nothing new to him.

So...based on the fish I have, I'm not seeing anything unexpected after Raiko identified each fish in the pictures  for me.  Nothing to disprove that the parents I have has more than what was mentioned...and Nothing to prove "the goulash" genetics...

But like I said, Spawn is smaller...maybe the next spawn after these guys will Tell us a better story.

...My comments aren't a diss at any breeder.....so if taken that way, I apologize.......but if the bg info from the beginning, a long time ago, had been better...you might not have needed to ask for much assistance in identifying fry...........look at the Philippine blues....sure there was a tussle by a few about it's recognition.....but then Ken laid all his cards on the table, and even provided angels for folks to play with......folks bred and shared results, pics, etal......it became a great learning experience for all.....maybe they do things differently in Europe....who knows.....but any of the bg fish that made it to the US were crossed already....D,g, pb, S....you name it.....this has made what night have been a fun fish to work with into a 'goulash' of genes making it a real project....a few breeders have tossed in the towel as far as working with them......and it didn't need to happen......hell the bg's sometimes even look pretty good....unfortunately you don't always know what the heck you've got.......so again....it's not the bg....it's not you handsome breeders......it's the screwed up process of assumptions and guessing that has just left a pretty f$$'n rotten taste in my mouth..... sorry 'bout that....

[Babers]

I agree with you Jon...there's a lot of assumptions/guessing about the BSP...that's why my comment was the facts that I saw, based on the batch that I have. I was merely stating facts.

I know you meant no diss and I didn't see it otherwise. We're just discussing it, and I respect your opinions too.

Oooooh, one more thing...you're right about the handsome part too...lol j/k   

[Mugwump]

I agree with you Jon...there's a lot of assumptions/guessing about the BSP...that's why my comment was the facts that I saw, based on the batch that I have. I was merely stating facts.

I know you meant no diss and I didn't see it otherwise. We're just discussing it, and I respect your opinions too.

..thanks Joel.....I just felt that I should let everyone know my position in case I'd hurt some feelings...I'm not like that.....

Are you dropping down for the GCCA swap on the 20th?......

[ghonk]

At this time, using the parents genes that was posted initially...Male (D/g pb/pb bg/bg) and Female (D/+ pb/pb +/bg)....and looking at the phenotypes of spawns that I have....I don't see anything that was not expected. I didn't see any odd-looking fish so far.

Since I really have not seen any postings also on the fry phenotype, this is why I asked Raiko's input on what kind of fry I have. I'm sure those color/phenotype varieties I have is nothing new to him.

So...based on the fish I have, I'm not seeing anything unexpected after Raiko identified each fish in the pictures  for me.  Nothing to disprove that the parents I have has more than what was mentioned...and Nothing to prove "the goulash" genetics...

But like I said, Spawn is smaller...maybe the next spawn after these guys will Tell us a better story.

...My comments aren't a diss at any breeder.....so if taken that way, I apologize.......but if the bg info from the beginning, a long time ago, had been better...you might not have needed to ask for much assistance in identifying fry...........look at the Philippine blues....sure there was a tussle by a few about it's recognition.....but then Ken laid all his cards on the table, and even provided angels for folks to play with......folks bred and shared results, pics, etal......it became a great learning experience for all.....maybe they do things differently in Europe....who knows.....but any of the bg fish that made it to the US were crossed already....D,g, pb, S....you name it.....this has made what night have been a fun fish to work with into a 'goulash' of genes making it a real project....a few breeders have tossed in the towel as far as working with them......and it didn't need to happen......hell the bg's sometimes even look pretty good....unfortunately you don't always know what the heck you've got.......so again....it's not the bg....it's not you handsome breeders......it's the screwed up process of assumptions and guessing that has just left a pretty f$$'n rotten taste in my mouth..... sorry 'bout that....

I don't think Raiko was trying to hide  anything,the thread i posted a link to explained the work he was doing in pretty good detail.
It listed the genetics of the fish he was using,it listed the  results of those crosses.
He included pictures of parents and offspring for the crosses he made,some for multiple generation.

OTHER then Raiko selling SOME fish the had p/b in them i don't see any difference in the way he did it  VS Ken.

Ken discovered   the p/b gene in platinums,and then did crosses to add the gene to different genotypes,to  see what the results were.
Raiko did EXACTLY the same thing with the b/g gene.

When Ken exported fish he didn't just export platinums,he exported different geneotypes that INCLUDED the p/b gene.

When Joel originally imported fish from Raiko he knew exactly what the genentics of the fish were,no mystery.

(Raiko in a TAF thread about the fish Joel imported.)

The fish at Joel are: (D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg) and maybe a small percentage: (D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg).

(Post # 11 here)
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=34111

Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.   
 




           

[ghonk]

MORE details about Raiko's EARLY work from another TAF thread.

http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=24342

[ghonk]

Also,as best as i can remember i don't think the earlier imports from Raiko (Angelfish USA) included the p/b gene.
So they would have been easier to work with,IF your objective is to have fish that only carry b/g,and don't include the p/b gene.   

[Mugwump]

Also,as best as i can remember i don't think the earlier imports from Raiko (Angelfish USA) included the p/b gene.
So they would have been easier to work with,IF your objective is to have fish that only carry b/g,and don't include the p/b gene.   

If they're so easy to work with........why aren't they in more breeder's/hobbyist's tanks like the Philippine blues, and others, are.....

I don't recall David bringing them in...?......I think that was the Dantums..?......if he did, why doesn't he still carry them ?....

[Babers]

Here's a link where bg/bg was mentioned. They had 50% Manacapuru blood in them. David's shipment (box #1).

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/10/03/bulgarian-green-angelfish-genetics-arrive-in-the-us/

[Mugwump]

Here's a link where bg/bg was mentioned. They had 50% Manacapuru blood in them. David's shipment (box #1).

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/10/03/bulgarian-green-angelfish-genetics-arrive-in-the-us/

I stand corrected..thanks Joel......he doesn't appear to still carry them tho....?

[Babers]

Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.   
           

He didn't have any small ones available at that time. I was able to get blushing adults (D/g S/S bg/bg) but was unsuccessful.

[Mugwump]

Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.   
           

He didn't have any small ones available at that time. I was able to get blushing adults (D/g S/S bg/bg) but was unsuccessful.

...'unsuccessful' ....how so?...breeding?....

[ghonk]

Thanks for the link Joel.
I thought Raiko exported NON p/b greens when David got them.
But didn't remember he ALSO sent pb/pb-bg/bg fish.
I guess it's because I was more interested    in the straight greens at that time.
Like I am now,and might have bred  p/b into them   later.

Now i'm not discounting fish that have both b/g AND p/b  in double dose.
They might be a more attractive fish  in many if not all genotypes ,VS greens.


 
   

[Babers]

Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.   
           

He didn't have any small ones available at that time. I was able to get blushing adults (D/g S/S bg/bg) but was unsuccessful.

...'unsuccessful' ....how so?...breeding?....

None of the adult fish I got bred...Adult BSP, Blacklace Manacapuru, and Nanacapuru. I blame myself for this bec I wasn't doing my due diligence to make them spawn and provide good spawning condition.

This time, I'm back to watching everything...checking water parameters, daily ph check, daily tds check, daily temp check, equipments, daily water changes, etc.

[ghonk]

 
[/quote]

None of the adult fish I got bred...Adult BSP, Blacklace Manacapuru, and Nanacapuru. I blame myself for this bec I wasn't doing my due diligence to make them spawn and provide good spawning condition.


[/quote]

OH NO,don't say that.
You are freaking me out a little bit/lot.
I have been trying to track down people that still have nanacapuru stock,hoping to buy some juvies when available.
I have found 2 people that MAY have offspring in the future.
But now i'm having second thoughts on getting them.

I don't understand how fish that are SEVERAL generations removed from the original wild stock would be more that much more difficult to breed then regular domestics.

Same crap with my dantums,other then my original female I had NO luck getting 2 batches of grow outs to pair.
At least 2 people I sold dantums to had the same results,and ended up giving up on them.

Most of my interest is in tank raised wilds and wild crosses.
But I sure don't need to invest the time and money into them and it all be a waste,as far as getting spawns from them.

[waterboy]

Everyone has a different perspective. Please excuse the long post, but here goes.

Raiko Slavkov  worked with several generations of a koi x black ghost crosses. He had two sibling pairs of Black Ghosts that each produced some Seal Points.  Once he had the BSPs he did several crosses to different phenotypes and posted pictures of the resulting fry. But he never did fry counts nor did he explain how the pictured ones related to the whole spawn. Didn't say if they were 3% or 90% of the spawn.

In 2014 Dave Label imported some of Raiko's fish.  I think there were about 300 but not sure of the count.  I didn't buy any because the price was too steep for me.
Some people had problems with the BSPs from Dave here. http://www.aquaboards.com/showthread.php?83964-Buyer-Beware-Bulgarian-Sealpoint-Angelfish

Apparently some were also imported to Canada in 2014 http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=753121

A lady in Oregon, Dena I think, obtained some Bulgarian Green fish. Worked with them for a while and lost some.  I think she then gave up, but not sure.
http://www.everythingaquatic.net/forum/forum/freshwater-fish-discussions/fish-care/cichlid-care/angelfish-pterophyllum/165025-bulgarian-green-breeding-log

Some were imported into the UK  https://www.facebook.com/337208559760711/videos/426437527504480
(Big Ben on the TAFII forum) in the UK worked with some of these fish here http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations

About 2017 there was a guy selling 'Hets' on Aquabid, but I don't remember the name.

In 2016 Joel  imported about 100 Bulgarian Seal Points.  He sold some of them, I bought 12, and I assume he saved a few.

A guy bought some of Joels  fish and had a delivery  problem but never stated whatever became of the fish. http://www.dfwfishbox.com/forums/production/vb4/showthread.php?40483-The-story-of-my-Bulgarian-Seal-Point-Angels-and-their-new-250G-home

Of the 300 imported by AngelfishUSA in 2014, and the 100 or so imported by Joel in 2016, there have been no reports of anyone producing Bulgarian Seal Point fish. That is 400 fish over 4 years with only one  report of offspring. Seems the only reports about these fish have been reports of weak fish that died off easy.  Of the 12 I bought from Joel, I lost all but three, which turned out to be all Males.

I Had a BSP spawn with a Blue Silver. I sold two of the resulting D/g-pb/pb-+bg hets to Joel.  One turned out to be Female and he paired it with one of the original BSPs.  I Paired one of my D/+-pb/pb-+/bg pinoys with one of the remaining uncle BSPs.   We both have youngsters growing out, but it is too early to tell much about them yet.  As far as I know Joel and I are the only people in the US with breeding Seal Points.