Eggs pulled, and doing well, wigglers due tomorrow..I finally have some grow out space.. ;D
Things are getting busy in the fishroom.
Quote from: PaulineMi on February 04, 2013, 07:43:12 PM
Things are getting busy in the fishroom.
Yes'm....changing out the Santa Isabel's pair tank water tomorrow.... ;D....50/50 too
Blacks have wigglers.... ;D..so far so good, this pair's spawns can be persnickity...
Nice!! I think out of all the angels i like the blacks the best
It's an older pair now, I picked these up from Frank at a GreenWater swap a year or so ago. They're off Steve Rybicki's stock, and carry a streaked/stripeless and a gold..they're both ,also, veils....so they throw Blacks/Black blusher/Golds/ Sunsets...in veil and super veil... ;D..the spawns are hit and miss sometimes, but I've been feeding them Tetramin and bloodworms....looks decent so far.....Josh has some of their fry...when the batches are good, they're very pretty angels..
Tetra Min. It really does make a huge difference on my angels. I have used $20 per pound stuff and the fry just don't do well. If I use Tetra min it's like magic. It's the ethoxyquin.
Frank I'm curious about the ethoxyquin connection. There had been all kinds of rumors and much controversy about its use in dogfood. It was cosidered the evil of all evils. Then there were many posts on the angelfish board about Tetramin and ethoxyquin being almost a miracle food. :o
Ethoxyquin is a preservative and a pesticide.I've tried to find info on its use as anything else but was unsuccessful. I did find this http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35089. At the bottom of the page it seems to suggest it produced mortality in fish. (Not sure if its was studied at 50000 times normal dose. ;))
So I'm stuck on trying to figure out what makes ethoxyquin work its magic in aquarium fish.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.....
QuoteMany pet food manufacturers use ethoxyquin because of it's excellent anti-oxidant qualities, high stability and reputed safety. However, an ongoing controversy surrounds issues related to its safety when repeatedly fed at permitted amounts in dog foods, particularly when fed to genetically susceptible breeds of inbred or closely linebred dogs. Toy breeds may be particularly at risk because they ingest proportionately more food and preservative for their size in order to sustain their energy needs.
Here's the entire article ==>> http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/Ethoxyquin.htm (http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/Ethoxyquin.htm)
Dennis
Dr. Dodds has been a pioneer in all things beneficial to dogs including the problems related to annual vaccinations. She is a proponent of taking blood titers rather than annually vaccinating them and doing fewer "puppy shots". Ethoxyquin has been removed from most if not all dogfoods several years ago.
Dennis your link and many, many others like it is what made me go out to see how fish would benefit from ethoxyquin. Usually fish and invertebrates are more sensitive to the negative effects of pesticides. Many angelfish people swear by ethoxyquin's positive effects on fertility rates and fry survival. I'm stumped on this one because it seems that this product hasn't been thoroughly tested on aquatic life. Or least I couldn't find much on the web.
Not being very scientific, but off the top of my head I'd say any benefits are probably due to the fact that it is an anti-oxidant.
"...pet food manufacturers use ethoxyquin because of it's excellent anti-oxidant qualities..."
QuoteAntioxidants are substances that may protect your cells against the effects of free radicals. Free radicals are molecules produced when your body breaks down food, or by environmental exposures like tobacco smoke and radiation. Free radicals can damage cells, and may play a role in heart disease, cancer and other diseases.
Dennis
Blew them off the slate this morning...big water change and all good... ;D
This is my Tetra Min theory.
Ethoxyquin is used as an antioxidant to prevent rust on apple skins and other fruits. Most likely the dog food manufacturers used Ethoxyquin to keep the fat and oils on the surface of dog foods from being prone to bacteria and oxidizing as well. It seems to control those bugs etc that eat high quality fats. To entice a dog to eat dog food they cover it in oils and fats to stimulate the dogs tastes capacity.
In an angelfish egg we have a concentration of high quality fats. It may be possible that this nutrition source is under attack while within the female and being stored in the eggs. It certainly is defenseless once laid upon a slate. It is my thought that the ethoxyquin is dosed into the fats by being present in the diet of the fish. This creates and egg fat that contains ethoxyquin. I think the ethoxyquin holds off bacteria and other items off of the fat even into the fry stage and until the fats are completely absorbed.
If the product is removed from the Tetra Min I would seek another anti oxidant to add to my food.
Quote from: Mugwump on February 06, 2013, 10:38:10 AM
Blew them off the slate this morning...big water change and all good... ;D
That's great news. Continued good luck with them.
Sorry we hijacked your thread.
Quote from: PaulineMi on February 06, 2013, 10:49:52 AM
Quote from: Mugwump on February 06, 2013, 10:38:10 AM
Blew them off the slate this morning...big water change and all good... ;D
That's great news. Continued good luck with them.
Sorry we hijacked your thread.
No sweat, knowledge is what we strive for.....it's all very interesting, theory, example, discussion...good food for the cells... ;D
Good news on the blacks! Wishing continued luck with them. And interesting info on the tetra min and ethoxyquin.
Interesting theory. "Food" for thought. ::)
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on February 06, 2013, 10:45:29 AM
This is my Tetra Min theory.
Ethoxyquin is used as an antioxidant to prevent rust on apple skins and other fruits. Most likely the dog food manufacturers used Ethoxyquin to keep the fat and oils on the surface of dog foods from being prone to bacteria and oxidizing as well. It seems to control those bugs etc that eat high quality fats. To entice a dog to eat dog food they cover it in oils and fats to stimulate the dogs tastes capacity.
In an angelfish egg we have a concentration of high quality fats. It may be possible that this nutrition source is under attack while within the female and being stored in the eggs. It certainly is defenseless once laid upon a slate. It is my thought that the ethoxyquin is dosed into the fats by being present in the diet of the fish. This creates and egg fat that contains ethoxyquin. I think the ethoxyquin holds off bacteria and other items off of the fat even into the fry stage and until the fats are completely absorbed.
If the product is removed from the Tetra Min I would seek another anti oxidant to add to my food.
Still looking pretty good, they're 'balling' up and there's a lot of pale ones...last spawn was mostly blacks and black blushing..this looks like a better mix of the golds ans Sunsets....
Very interesting! So is there Ethoxyquin in all of the tetramin line of foods? I really like the tetramin pro
Quote from: Jdmcfast on February 07, 2013, 11:15:50 AM
Very interesting! So is there Ethoxyquin in all of the tetramin line of foods? I really like the tetramin pro
http://nlsfishfood.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=63&limit=1&limitstart=5 (http://nlsfishfood.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=63&limit=1&limitstart=5)
I guess this answers my own question lol, but raises the question "why the better results from tetramin?"
Because of oxygen. While you may think that oxygen is really great stuff because you need it to breathe and live, the truth is that oxygen is thee most evil schtuff in the known universe. This is because of the reactive properties of oxygen. Oxygen reacts with almost every thing. This reaction is called oxidation. Oxidation is in essence, burning. When we breathe in oxygen we use it to burn our fuel and break down compounds to free nutrients, we partner with micro organisms within us that break items down to free nutrients. If we study ourselves we are but a colony of cells, each cell requiring oxygen to free up compounds from the mix. This oxygen also oxidizes us. Oxygen is why any thing man ever makes will break down. Each item that oxygen reacts upon has a different nobility against the reaction process that breaks it's compounds down using oxygen. In the case of fats, which is the base topic here, they are of a chemical composition that makes them vulnerable to bacterium that will break them down and oxygen which will oxidize them chemically. These fats are the essential trigger mechanism used to inform a dog, cat hog or fish that the item they are eating is worthy of their time to consume. A dog cat or fish may taste this surface fat concentration which makes it taste good, as it does in us. Without this surface fat we would use another prone to oxidation nutrient complex, sugar, which can also be easily tasted. Chemically fat and sugar are very similar. There are various types of both fats and sugars that have different characteristics. High complexity fats and high complexity sugars require more metabiollic energy to beak down, they also produce more residual contaminants than simple forms of these nutrients. The more simple, the more prone to ready oxidation. A very high quality grade of olive oil is very prone to fogging if it is left unprotected, this fogging is the reaction of the lipids (fats) oxidizing. Once oxidized the quality of the nutrient is diminished. The taste can be severely affected as well. By placing a coating of either a bacteria blocker or a coating of a product that resists oxidation we can buy more time for the fats to be stored in containers. Of course, since this product resists oxidation it can cause issues when ingested in too great a quantity as the entire process of food consumption relies upon oxidation. It is a tricky balancing act between enough to protect the fat and too much which will cause this product to concentrate and become a possible carcinogen. It is possible that any thing that does not oxidize is capable of being a carcinogen as the cells have no efficient way to displace them from the colony of organisms.
This all produces a real catch 22, How to preserve the fats and sugars without ruining them chemically?
Zounds!!!!!!..that was a mouthful, Frank.....good post, very interesting....thanx....some things we all know, but put in different context gets your point across very well... ;D
you guy's are starting to get over my head here. lol
SO...if I breathe in more oxygen, will I lose more fat? lol Sorry, I had to throw that out there...it just got me thinking..look out! lol That's a dangerous area for me!
Frank, you do have an incredible mind. Wish my brain could think like yours! Very interesting information here!
Quote from: shatanka on February 07, 2013, 07:00:23 PM
SO...if I breathe in more oxygen, will I lose more fat? lol Sorry, I had to throw that out there...it just got me thinking..look out! lol That's a dangerous area for me!
Frank, you do have an incredible mind. Wish my brain could think like yours! Very interesting information here!
SSsssshhhhh....don't let him know..... ;D
HA HA....I already have! lol What will happen ? lol ha ha
You guys just crack me up! lol
Quote from: shatanka on February 07, 2013, 07:00:23 PM
SO...if I breathe in more oxygen, will I lose more fat? lol Sorry, I had to throw that out there...it just got me thinking..look out! lol That's a dangerous area for me!
We'll all be walking around with oxygen tanks if that's all it takes. Ha.... I'm old enough; it would look like a medical necessity.
OMG...LMAO YOU ARE HILARIOUS! lol....I am just dyin' here ...and haven't even had a beer or anything to drink! lol
sorry Mug..back to the black's spawn now...
We have lift off.....there's Blacks, black blushing, gold, gold blushing(Sunsets)...
That's a nice looking group.
My wife would like everyone to know...I have the exhaust part of the concept well taken care of....he he he.
LOL...you wife is a super nice person, Frank...I walked by and she was by herself, 'holding the fort'...I walked over and asked her "where's Marco Polo"...she says.."he's over there, and over there, and was over there, and just came from over there?...LOL...we had to laugh...and I thought that I was the only one who roamed every table....LOL... ;D
That's alot of fry. There looking good.
Quote from: b125killer on February 10, 2013, 06:57:04 PM
That's alot of fry. There looking good.
Yep, they be everywhere..... ;D
Congrats JON
Thanks, Bob....and much better than the last spawn of theirs too... ;D
Just an update vid, not even a week free swimming..you can see the other batch in the tank behind them... ;D
Looking good Frank and Jon... ;D
Those are Jon's fish. They look really nice.
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on February 15, 2013, 10:37:17 AM
Those are Jon's fish. They look really nice.
Thanks, Frank......LOL...best spawn from this pair yet....dimmed the tank and poured in bloodworms....LOL......
well, time to move the fry....now where..??...sheesh, have to move the Sta Isabel/Rio Negros shortly too....looks like some rearranging of some angels...
You need more tanks. Didn't think anyone would say that did you LOL.
The fry have started to fin out and are eating like pigs...I may introduce crushed flake soon...
Fins looking good, some have a streaked gene, tips of dorsals are whitish on some...and I'm seeing Sunsets, the blush is showing good now..... ;D
Sounds very pretty Jon with that streaked gene.
You might see some velvets in there. Keep an eye out for them as they are hard to spot early . As they grow out you will see some nice clean DD with very little streaking. I kept around 100 of those to raise out. I have around 12 left that I am making a couple of pairs to keep. I ended up with 12 or so velvets in veil and super too. The line may be het for zebra as well. My zebras are coming from a male brother of yours that I crossed to a blue clown. The fins on that line are really nice. I put those fins into quite a few of my lines.
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on March 07, 2013, 07:52:43 PM
You might see some velvets in there. Keep an eye out for them as they are hard to spot early . As they grow out you will see some nice clean DD with very little streaking. I kept around 100 of those to raise out. I have around 12 left that I am making a couple of pairs to keep. I ended up with 12 or so velvets in veil and super too. The line may be het for zebra as well. My zebras are coming from a male brother of yours that I crossed to a blue clown. The fins on that line are really nice. I put those fins into quite a few of my lines.
Yep, I spotted the velvets from some earlier spawns..they're in 'safe' keeping...LOL...I haven't seen the Zebra pop yet tho....the veils are gorgeous.....I'm snatching a few more Sunset veils for myself this time too.....Sunset Super veils are awesome....
You will need to cross the velvet to a DD to get a good velvet. If you cross two velvets you get a lot of non pb blue blusher. Not so very special this gray fish it makes.
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on March 07, 2013, 08:24:14 PM
You will need to cross the velvet to a DD to get a good velvet. If you cross two velvets you get a lot of non pb blue blusher. Not so very special this gray fish it makes.
Yep, on the velvets, and Blue blushers, good ones, I could sell out in minutes....dark fins, decent blush.....everyone loved them. I had a pair of Blue blushing pearslale, that the female would lay 1000+ eggs every spawn...every 9 days like clockwork....LOL....I sold the pair to a friend downstate Ottawa...he called me and said "how the F*&%$ do you shut her down"....LOLOLOLOLOL....that pair were like a machine spawners....and only maybe one or two bad eggs per spawn.....LOL...he sold her to some guy out in Nevada, or somwhere....last that I heard her spawns were getting bigger as she aged..not as often, but bigger spawns...what a sweetheart....I just didn't have enough room anymore for all the frick'n fry....LOL
I should add that she was as big as a pie plate....huge...the male was no slouch either...
What's a velvet?
Quote from: PaulineMi on March 07, 2013, 08:33:32 PM
What's a velvet?
DD black blushing....gorgeous coal black angels, no underlining stripes.....
a 'Turq' is a single dose black blushing.....greenish gills and head area....
I have been able to get some with actual red cheeks from clear gill plates. The fish has very little reflection to it. Little flat black primer. The double dark double blush with the red cheeks are super fragile genetically. One Brother sister cross away from total sterility and mutants. The genes are so fatally mixed. The only way to really have good success with them is to create them by making a cross and getting fry. It can be hit or miss on partner pairing. Some partnerships are good, some give all sliders, some you get foot ball shaped fish. Beautiful but frustrating. Worth the result though I think. They are there in these. Have fun.
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on March 08, 2013, 07:50:37 AM
I have been able to get some with actual red cheeks from clear gill plates. The fish has very little reflection to it. Little flat black primer. The double dark double blush with the red cheeks are super fragile genetically. One Brother sister cross away from total sterility and mutants. The genes are so fatally mixed. The only way to really have good success with them is to create them by making a cross and getting fry. It can be hit or miss on partner pairing. Some partnerships are good, some give all sliders, some you get foot ball shaped fish. Beautiful but frustrating. Worth the result though I think. They are there in these. Have fun.
Yep, black pairings are known to be deleterious....but on occasion you get a good pair and they're like 'gold'.....adding super veil to the mix doesn't exactly help any either, *sarcasm*.....I had an absolutely gorgeous pair of DD super veils that produced 10% viable fry, at best....but oh those fry....think wow factor.....
I was going to try to add pearl into the velvets but I think the fish might become thermally unstable and spontaneously ignite. Snicker. :)
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on March 08, 2013, 12:09:55 PM
I was going to try to add pearl into the velvets but I think the fish might become thermally unstable and spontaneously ignite. Snicker. :)
Agreed, the pearl scale would make them totally unstable.....plus adding more of a chance for short/missing ventrals......
The ones from a successful spawn sound beautiful.
Here's the black spawn fry...really doing well, and the Male released the Albino blue eyed fry....
so whats the spawn looking like now?
Quote from: greydragon on March 10, 2013, 02:14:59 PM
so whats the spawn looking like now?
LOL...that was this morning.... ;D....
cool i didnt look at the date sorry
Quote from: greydragon on March 10, 2013, 03:22:49 PM
cool i didnt look at the date sorry
No sweat.. ;D...you almost made me look too....LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL....
i am really interested in these fry, especially the blacks......all flavors ;D. some of the others also. let me know when or if you are selling them. i want to start up again and need some pretties.
Quote from: pashley on March 10, 2013, 03:40:49 PM
i am really interested in these fry, especially the blacks......all flavors ;D. some of the others also. let me know when or if you are selling them. i want to start up again and need some pretties.
Will do, there's a variety in there if all make it....DD blushing(velvets) D blushing(Turq's), Sunsets,gold ghosts.....and all are either veil or super veil...I'll be selling some in a month or so, when they're bigger, and when this rotten weather goes away... ;D..same with the Sta Isabel crosses.....I have Koi now, but too blasted cold at nite to chance em...
that is awesome. let me know when they are ready.
Looks like moving day for these guys and gals, they need a bigger tank... ;D
I am curious.
These being hybrids there will be some that might candle fairly clean and clear of junk. And then you have the manacapuru stock. I wonder how clean the manas are? F1 or wild or where they might be? Hmmm. I personally have outcrossed very clean dark fish to Peruvian types but did not have success in cleansing the gene plate. I blamed the D stock. I have had streaked show up in out crossings to Peruvians at a high rate. Using hybrids I have still had streaked show up. Recently I have done some other Peruvian crosses and some of the things showing up are really not supposed to appear. I'm notso confident in the Peruvians any longer in so much as them having to junk or modifiers in them. I have never tried using a Sta Isabella or a Mancapuru from clean stock crossed to a well illuminated D before. This might be an excellent project Jon. They would be gorgeous beasts for sure even if the gene plate still had a few things left in it.
My original Manacapuru are very clean....They are F1's from Joel. I've been thinking of crossing them to the Blacks myself.....I think the difficulty is selection of the good black fry. I'd want to see stripes under the black and no gold sheen....and of course, no streaking.....
Maybe. This is why I'm getting into the velvets more. On a single dose velvet I can see a really blank canvas of black a lot easier. I have no bars or dark patterns hiding in the field to confuse my eyes. Very little gold and then you can hut out the very obvious silver. This would be a great cross because even a failure to isolate the DD would give you a fantastic large well shaped fish with red eyes in the end. By crossing in a veil hybrid you would most likely have veiled manacapuru in the first generation, you may have a mana gold cross. I think the first generation would make some very cool fish. Then raise out bunch and try to breed them back to get the high percentage DD's. My gosh a mana x DD veil set line would be hot looking.
Quote from: Frank The Plumber on March 18, 2013, 01:19:20 PM
Maybe. This is why I'm getting into the velvets more. On a single dose velvet I can see a really blank canvas of black a lot easier. I have no bars or dark patterns hiding in the field to confuse my eyes. Very little gold and then you can hut out the very obvious silver. This would be a great cross because even a failure to isolate the DD would give you a fantastic large well shaped fish with red eyes in the end. By crossing in a veil hybrid you would most likely have veiled manacapuru in the first generation, you may have a mana gold cross. I think the first generation would make some very cool fish. Then raise out bunch and try to breed them back to get the high percentage DD's. My gosh a mana x DD veil set line would be hot looking.
Daggone it, Frank....now ya got my wheels turning.....Hmmmmm.....
You think you have it bad I have a full visual image in my head already. I think there would be tongue swallowage. Can you imagine the fins that it would have as a veil cross, yikes.
Moved the fry to 55's today......sweeeeeet fins.....yep!
A vid of the Blacks spawn...
The colors of those guys together make for a pretty tank of angels.
Quote from: PaulineMi on April 03, 2013, 07:57:56 PM
The colors of those guys together make for a pretty tank of angels.
I put my nose close to the glass and all that I see are veils....LOL...the bodies need to grow into them more
Some nice long finnage on the blacks I see! They're going to be so pretty!