I was thinking, what if we all set up a 120 gal community tank here. Talk our way through the process of cycling, water parameters, filtration, lighting, and decorating..plants, rock, wood, etc...then plan out the population to be kept...species compatibility, bottom feeders, mid tank swimmers, top swimmers, etc.....upkeep and fish care...and anything else brought up..
This could be an interesting thread for anyone to access for reference. Plus it'd be a fun exercise. ;D
Yes our virtual tank.
New or used? Cost of new vs condition of silicone seals/need for resealing. What to look for. Stand considerations.
Then on to the fun stuff.
I think a wooden display type stand would look good, and what can we get a nice used tank for?? A used wood stand in good condition is cheaper than new, so look around.
There are reasonably priced used tanks, in excellent condition.
In a used tank, first consideration would, if the glass clean, and unscratched...then, does it hold water...and how old is it?..ever been resealed?, what was kept in it?..etc...is it drilled?
What's a good price for a used 120gal tank?
What can we get a new/used stand for..??
let's try to keep a tally on cost too....that's an eye opener to lots of folks. ;D
would the tank be acrylic or glass?
Let's do glass... much better fro taking photos. ;D
Dennis
I've found a drilled glass 125 just down the road from me for $50.00 on Craig's List. I'm hoping it's a 6 footer.
Dennis
I agree, glass is best. $50 for a 125, that's a steal if it's not 'frosted' over....sounds like an old tank too...nice thick glass. ;D
Ok, now we've maybe found our tank....we need a stand.
Funny thing is I just built a 120 stand. USed the same plans as I did for the double 55 gallon tank.... Looks like this:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f75/Jemfam/131113_0001.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/Jemfam/media/131113_0001.jpg.html)
Should have it painted by weekend 8)
WOW That stand would support my SUV. Nice work Aron. ;)
Dennis
If we go with a fish room type rack, perfect. Do we need an available alternate in case someone wants the tank in there front room, a la show tank?
you could always create a curtain to put around the bottom and be able to hide away your water changing supplies!! Buckets hoses etc....
Good idea, it can be versatile too. ;D
Most of my used tanks were free or close to it and needed repair. Still if I had my heart set on a 120 and it was in good shape silicone and all I would consider it to be worth $120. to $150. I dislike carpentry but I have built stands before.
Planted or unplanted?....if planted we'll have to decide on the type of substrate, and lighting. Low light plants?..high light plants?..combo??....
Only plants in pots and some nice pieces of drift wood for me. A simple tank like that helps you keep things clean and can be interesting to look at as well.
We all know what i would stock it with. A couple of monster fish lol
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 16, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Only plants in pots and some nice pieces of drift wood for me. A simple tank like that helps you keep things clean and can be interesting to look at as well.
That's one option....anyone else??
Quote from: ilroost on November 16, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
We all know what i would stock it with. A couple of monster fish lol
LOL....we're trying for a community tank.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
A pair of Discus, 10 or so Half Black Angels (preferably pearl scales), 4 BNs, 8 German Blue Rams, And a pair of Pearl Gourami's.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 16, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
A pair of Discus, 10 or so Half Black Angels (preferably pearl scales), 4 BNs, 8 German Blue Rams, And a pair of Pearl Gourami's.
I'd like to see veiled angels, discus, jumbo neons, BN plecos, cory's, and some mixed medium sized fish..tetras, rams, Swordtails, etc the colors selected to accent the plants...maybe even a lone male Betta(red).....not too crowded, but active....
Quote from: Mugwump on November 16, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 16, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
A pair of Discus, 10 or so Half Black Angels (preferably pearl scales), 4 BNs, 8 German Blue Rams, And a pair of Pearl Gourami's.
I'd like to see veiled angels, discus, jumbo neons, BN plecos, cory's, and some mixed medium sized fish..tetras, rams, Swordtails, etc the colors selected to accent the plants...maybe even a lone male Betta(red).....not too crowded, but active....
That's a pipe dream, Mug. To be healthy, Discus need a temp of at least 82. It's too high for Neons, which the Discus would eat anyway. Jumbo Cardinals would work. The Angels would have the Betta ripped to shreds in a day or two, although I've kept a Beta in a Discus only tank. Sterbai cory's and Lazers do well at Discus temps. The others do not.
Gosh, just writing in this thread makes me want a display tank!
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 16, 2013, 05:16:54 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on November 16, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 16, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
A pair of Discus, 10 or so Half Black Angels (preferably pearl scales), 4 BNs, 8 German Blue Rams, And a pair of Pearl Gourami's.
I'd like to see veiled angels, discus, jumbo neons, BN plecos, cory's, and some mixed medium sized fish..tetras, rams, Swordtails, etc the colors selected to accent the plants...maybe even a lone male Betta(red).....not too crowded, but active....
That's a pipe dream, Mug. To be healthy, Discus need a temp of at least 82. It's too high for Neons, which the Discus would eat anyway. Jumbo Cardinals would work. The Angels would have the Betta ripped to shreds in a day or two, although I've kept a Beta in a Discus only tank. Sterbai cory's and Lazers do well at Discus temps. The others do not.
Gosh, just writing in this thread makes me want a display tank!
I've had Betta's with angels with no issues...cory's can take the 82...I've got a bunch that thrive in it....Jumbo cardinals would be fine too, good suggestion...I'm just thinking a nice variety of top,med,bottom fish...colorful but not gaudy...blending well with the plants....
anyone else going to chime in..????
Found this a minute ago....not ideal, but very nice ;D
Quote from: P4Angels on November 16, 2013, 12:50:39 PM
Funny thing is I just built a 120 stand. USed the same plans as I did for the double 55 gallon tank.... Looks like this:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f75/Jemfam/131113_0001.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/Jemfam/media/131113_0001.jpg.html)
Should have it painted by weekend 8)
Aron, is that 72" long???
I have always had a soft spot for a nice school of harlequin rasboras.
HMMMMmmm..should we make it small/medium size fish population??...or go mostly medium/larger fish???
If you want Angels and Discus wouldn't med/large be better?
Quote from: wsantia1 on November 17, 2013, 06:20:47 AM
If you want Angels and Discus wouldn't med/large be better?
If we go larger, yes.....some like the smaller shoaling fish tho...I'd like some sort of 'combo'...???
Quote from: Mugwump on November 17, 2013, 06:25:16 AM
Quote from: wsantia1 on November 17, 2013, 06:20:47 AM
If you want Angels and Discus wouldn't med/large be better?
If we go larger, yes.....some like the smaller shoaling fish tho...I'd like some sort of 'combo'...???
I like the combo too. ;D
If this thread will be of help to noobs......do not put a Chinese algae eater in the tank. Its the golden fish swimming by in the beginning of the video. They are indiscriminate "sucker-type" fish that will attach to anything. That includes the sides of fish and even eyeballs!
Activity levels of the fish going into a community tank need to be considered. Will all fish be able to compete for food that is dropped into the tank? Water temps were addressed in a previous post but water flow is another consideration. Riverine types usually prefer cool flowing water. Other species prefer calm waters.
Then there are fish that need cover to feel secure and/or dither fish to up their confidence levels. If the dithers are out and about the less bold or shy fish believe there's a safe environment out in the open.
If cichlids are chosen as tank inhabitants a person must do their homework on these guys. Most cichlids, especially the Africans (old world cichlids) and many South and Central (new world) cichlids are very territorial. This behavior results in varying degrees of aggression that can even result in the death of tankmates. If a cichlid is described as peaceful understand that the term is relative.
Oops.....we skipped cycling a tank.....the need to established a healthy active biofilter.
I personally have never cycled a tank. My water is cheap and I just change tons of it until the filter becomes cycled.
Same here Liz, I can't remember the last time I "cycled" a tank. Drop in a pre-seeded filter, some substrate and plants and away we go................
Frankly, I think all the BS about "fishless cycling" puts off many newcomers to the hobby. If done properly, you can cycle a brand new set-up with fish and never lose a single one.
Here's a great article on the subject by my friend David in Florida ==>> http://www.aquariumadvice.com/fishin-cycling-step-dark-side/ (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/fishin-cycling-step-dark-side/)
Dennis
Shoot, I've even done it that way without substrate, plants and a cycled filter. I just keep an eye on water parameters and change water like a crazy person.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 17, 2013, 10:50:39 AM
Shoot, I've even done it that way without substrate, plants and a cycled filter.
Yea, if I'm doing it that way, I don't even bother checking the water parameters, just daily massive water changes.
Dennis
If I were setting up first new tank and doing it that way I would not buy all the fish at once. A lower stocking level makes cycling from scratch easier. I'd try to find my mated pair of Discus (that will cost an arm and a leg) and the group of rams from the same supplier.
We need to think about how we would manage QT as well.
If we don't have well water and use tap water we need to test the water. My tap water has chloramines in it, so I have to use something to get rid of the ammonia from the beginning.
QuoteFrankly, I think all the BS about "fishless cycling" puts off many newcomers to the hobby. If done properly, you can cycle a brand new set-up with fish and never lose a single one.
This is like what I call jump starting a biofilter.
We did similar things several times with very large biofilters on water systems with lots of fish. if you transfer lots of bacteria on some kind of substrate, they will be already able to act as a biofilter. Nitrifiers on substrate can process ammonia. Nitrifiers floating around unattached do not.
Combine this large addition of bacteria with initial lighter than normal feeding until the bacterial populations can increase and you should not have problems. If you have a UV, turn it off if you want your bacteria to become more rapidly established.
A potential drawback is the inadvertent introduction of disease, but if you know the source of the bacteria it should not be a problem.
I have also found that a large dose of DrTim's bacteria can start a biofilter in a day or two if done properly. This would remove the chance of disease introduction and would provide a quick start without having another tank going already.
An additional advantage of using material from an established tank would be the introduction of thousands of other species of bacteria found in a mature filter which will provide a more complete bacterial ecology.
I've never done the 6-8 week fishless cycling either. Have done the other types that are in the link Dennis provided. My first tank..a 90 gallon African cichlid tank...was slowly stocked over a couple weeks with juveniles. From then on all tanks have been "seeded" using substrate and/or established filter media. Stem plants help also. The bare bottom plant-less discus tank got daily 75 to 90% water changes when it was new (thank you Liz for the heads up on that procedure).
Next is the acclimation of fish when getting ready to put them into a new tank. 8) Drop and plop......
I have read that some brands of commercial filter seeding bacteria actually work. Some do not.
I want to know what y'all will do when introducing fish from different sources. How will you do it, just dump them in and hope for the best of do you have a QT plan?
Q.T. tank here. melafix and 2 weeks before adding to a tank
I would do way more as far as QT. I've been hit hard in the past by disease. I will not allow it to happen again.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 17, 2013, 03:24:53 PM
I would do way more as far as QT. I've been hit hard in the past by disease. I will not allow it to happen again.
yeppers, once with the 2 X 4 is enough. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
The ZF lab standard for quarantining is to hold new fish in a separate room, breed them, collect the eggs and bleach the eggs to "sterilize" the surface and then grow them up in the main fish room.
This will eliminate bad stuff on the surface of the eggs (some diseases, like microspridia, can already be inside the egg).
Two kinds of diseases, obligate diseases (those that require the host to survive, like ich) and opportunistic diseases (those that do not require the host to survive, like mycobacteria or many surface bacterial or fungal infections that can just live it the fish tank without infecting fish). The opportunistic infections are more difficult to exclude than opportunistic pathogens.
Some other pathogens (like digenetic trematodes (certain flukes)) require an intermediate host like snails. To me this is a reason to not have snails. If you do get a fish infected with one of these pathogens, they will not be able to propagate and infect other fish if no intermediate hosts are present. If the intermediate host is present however, they could infect other fish.
All of my "new" fish go into their own tank. Not necessarily a quarantine tank as many of my fish always live in a species tank, so they may in fact spend the rest of their lives in this tank. For those that do get mixed with other fish, they have been in "their" tank for 6 to 12 weeks before mingling with others in the fish room.
Most never receive any chemical treatment but those that do are either killed or cured with Clout or some form of copper sulfide treatment. Haven't used either of these in years, knock on wood.
Dennis
So......we have a 120gal, w/stand, planted, ......what substrate and lighting???
With plants, we should try a real good LED....
Quote from: BallAquatics on November 17, 2013, 04:07:39 PM
All of my "new" fish go into their own tank. Not necessarily a quarantine tank as many of my fish always live in a species tank, so they may in fact spend the rest of their lives in this tank. For those that do get mixed with other fish, they have been in "their" tank for 6 to 12 weeks before mingling with others in the fish room.
Most never receive any chemical treatment but those that do are either killed or cured with Clout or some form of copper sulfide treatment. Haven't used either of these in years, knock on wood.
Dennis
I wait a week and observe the fish in QT. If they are doing well, I take my least quality Discus from the fish room and put it in the QT tank with the newly purchased fish and wait another week. If they are all happy and healthy I take the ones in the QT tank and put them in the fish room. I got a bad disease not long ago from not following my own advice.
QuoteI have read that some brands of commercial filter seeding bacteria actually work. Some do not.
I have tried some in the past that do not work.
On the other hand I have tested DrTim's and it works great.
I did tests by soaking filter media in it for an hour or two and then putting the media in the biofilter, adding ammonia chloride, and measuring how much was present at various times afterward.
I established a full size biofilter in a day.
His bacteria come in a solution not a dry powder and he ensures that it is made fresh and does not sit on a shelf very long.
We would give DrTimsbacteria to labs we sold racks to so they could use them soon after set-up.
This would similar to squeezing out dirty water from a sponge filter and soaking biomedia in it.
The DrTim stuff would have only a few species of bacteria aimed at eating ammonia and nitrates. A sponge filter will have hundreds or thousands of kinds of bacteria. It would provide a better rounded bacterial ecology but might also transmit disease organisms.
The Good, the Bad, and the Not-So-Ugly Truths about Aquarium Bacteria
Most people think of bacteria as something that will make you and your pets sick. In reality, bacteria play a critical role in healthy fish, ecosystems, and well-balanced aquarium systems. Dr. Tim Hovanec, the founder of Dr. Tim's Aquatics, has been working in the aquarium and aquaculture field for decades. His graduate research revolutionized our understanding of biofilter bacteria, and over the years, he has designed numerous bacteria-based products that solve many common aquarium problems. Join us, as we discuss the good, the bad, and the not-so-ugly truths about aquarium bacteria with Dr. Tim.
http://www.petliferadio.com/aquariumaniaep22.html (http://www.petliferadio.com/aquariumaniaep22.html)
Dennis
Quote from: BallAquatics on November 20, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
The Good, the Bad, and the Not-So-Ugly Truths about Aquarium Bacteria
Most people think of bacteria as something that will make you and your pets sick. In reality, bacteria play a critical role in healthy fish, ecosystems, and well-balanced aquarium systems. Dr. Tim Hovanec, the founder of Dr. Tim's Aquatics, has been working in the aquarium and aquaculture field for decades. His graduate research revolutionized our understanding of biofilter bacteria, and over the years, he has designed numerous bacteria-based products that solve many common aquarium problems. Join us, as we discuss the good, the bad, and the not-so-ugly truths about aquarium bacteria with Dr. Tim.
http://www.petliferadio.com/aquariumaniaep22.html (http://www.petliferadio.com/aquariumaniaep22.html)
Dennis
Quote from: BillT on November 20, 2013, 07:30:00 PM
QuoteI have read that some brands of commercial filter seeding bacteria actually work. Some do not.
I have tried some in the past that do not work.
On the other hand I have tested DrTim's and it works great.
I did tests by soaking filter media in it for an hour or two and then putting the media in the biofilter, adding ammonia chloride, and measuring how much was present at various times afterward.
I established a full size biofilter in a day.
His bacteria come in a solution not a dry powder and he ensures that it is made fresh and does not sit on a shelf very long.
We would give DrTimsbacteria to labs we sold racks to so they could use them soon after set-up.
This would similar to squeezing out dirty water from a sponge filter and soaking biomedia in it.
The DrTim stuff would have only a few species of bacteria aimed at eating ammonia and nitrates. A sponge filter will have hundreds or thousands of kinds of bacteria. It would provide a better rounded bacterial ecology but might also transmit disease organisms.
Two excellent posts...thanks guys..
Ok, I'm going partial fill it, 1/3 full, and use a peat/soil mix, to be sand coated after planting. Plants will be Amazon swords, various Anubis, some vale, and water sprite, possibly some java moss tied to a few pieces of wood branches.....then the layer of sand to cover the dirt/peat substrate.... from there, fill it and add three seasoned sponges(to removed later) and start two dble hob filters with purigen/floss......let it finish cycling, remove sponges, let it build up some by introducing some mollies and sword tails...then it's on to deciding on tank mates while the plants root in, and start growing. lighting will be high wattage LED lights...as the tank begins to mature, the permanent population will need to be finalized.......corys, BN, etc.....
any suggestions...any ideas, or better methods??
Is this for beginners? If so they maybe not have seasoned sponge filters unless from friends.
You buy seasoned sponges online....or use any number of bacteria additives available. Seasoned sponges, or filter media, are just easier options.
Unfortunately I bought some seasoned sponges online that were not seasoned. The guy that sold them to me told me it was probably my test kit. Yeah right. I surely did not trust that answer. I just waited it out that time.
You can throw an extra sponge in a tank, here,and there, then you'll always one ready..
Most beginners don't know about sponge filters much less seasoned sponges. I have never seen one before I met Jon. Now I don't think I would set up a tank with out a few in it. I think we should let the tank cycle with out seasoned filters.
Ok...we'll use some feeder guppies to bring it along.
I have just seen this thread, I was offline on a trip when you began it. Is this a virtual tank?? Sorry I don't have enough time to go through the whole thread now. Just curious,
Barb
More or less, yes....I figured it be a good exercise to combine our group knowledge in setting up a tank from step one....so far, it's interesting to see others suggestions, and point(s) of view.
Quote from: Mugwump on November 26, 2013, 11:45:50 AM
Ok...we'll use some feeder guppies to bring it along.
Great idea Jon, I'd substitute a dozen Zebra Danio for the guppies so we aren't bored to tears waiting for the cycle to run it's course, and just in case this slipped through un-noticed, here's David's fantastic article about cycling with fish.....
Quote from: BallAquatics on November 17, 2013, 10:30:35 AM
Here's a great article on the subject by my friend David in Florida ==>> http://www.aquariumadvice.com/fishin-cycling-step-dark-side/ (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/fishin-cycling-step-dark-side/)
Dennis
Good article, Dennis....
Tanks cycled now....so what's next?.....
...seems like we have a cycled tank that's been ready for over three years now....LOL....
I have never in my life cycled a tank. I can't understand why people find it easier to do the ammonia thing and constantly test the water parameters when all that's necessary it to change a huge amount of water every day until the beneficial bacteria in the filter starts working. I had 5 huge adult Discus cramed in a 30 gallon with an uncycled filter for 3 weeks quarantine. I watched the fish. Fish will show you if they're stressed. I must have taken it slow, because as I went from flopping on the bottom daily WC to 50% the fish showed no signs of stress.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on October 09, 2017, 03:19:03 PM
I can't understand why people find it easier to do the ammonia thing and constantly test the water parameters when all that's necessary it to change a huge amount of water every day until the beneficial bacteria in the filter starts working.
That's why. Some of us are just plain too lazy to do big water changes every day. I cycled my first tank with two filters and after that it is put a cycled filter in the new tank and go. Removing one filter reduces the good bacteria by 50%, but the bacteria can double in 24 hours so you haven't lost anything. And the next tank starts with a cycled filter.
When I had the 5 huge Discus in a 30, I had a fear that the Discus Plague (same virus as Angelfish Plague) might still be lingering in my fish room. I had to make it so there was 0 cross contamination. Doing that required a good but of thought. Now that I'm not buying Asian Discus I no longer have to worry about extreme QT.