(https://stored-edge.slickpic.com/MTI0NjA2YjQxMDA3NzA,/20180918/MTU0MTkxMjkxNzA0/p/1600/Bolgarian_seal_point.jpg)
I should add that these are from Dale.....the dark fin angels are the Bulgarian seal points, the others are Pinoy, 'het' for bg...not pictured is a white 'het' bg with inverted striping.....
...well done, Dale... |^|
I didn't do anything but feed them and keep their tank clean. They did it all themselves. I have about 20 or so of the Seal Points growing out now. I am so fearful that they won't spawn when they mature that I am afraid to sell any until I get a good breeding pair or two. So far spawning has been very erratic. May need to do more outcrossing to try to get them some stronger genes.
The parents of those are a Bulgarian Seal Point (D/g,pb/pb,bg/bg) and a Lace Pinoy Het (D/+,pb/pb,+/bg)
....they're settling in nicely now....when I first fed them they waited for the food to drift off the top....now they hammer it at the surface....LOL...gotta watch your fingers.... :)
How old are these now, Dale?
Are the BSP's PB also,or het PB?
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 05:20:54 AM
....they're settling in nicely now....when I first fed them they waited for the food to drift off the top....now they hammer it at the surface....LOL...gotta watch your fingers.... :)
How old are these now, Dale?
They were spawned on June 26th so they are about three months old.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Right now the only plans I have are to get a spawning pair or two. After that there are no plans. At this point I suspect that the double blue and double Bulgarian Green genes are modifying the Black gene to produce the seal points. Not sure if you would have Seal Points without both. Of course that is probably the point.
Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Right now the only plans I have are to get a spawning pair or two. After that there are no plans. At this point I suspect that the double blue and double Bulgarian Green genes are modifying the Black gene to produce the seal points. Not sure if you would have Seal Points without both. Of course that is probably the point.
...my thoughts too...plus 'het' vs homogeneous of either pb or bg sets off a whole different scenario too.....crazy....
Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Right now the only plans I have are to get a spawning pair or two. After that there are no plans. At this point I suspect that the double blue and double Bulgarian Green genes are modifying the Black gene to produce the seal points. Not sure if you would have Seal Points without both. Of course that is probably the point.
Raiko made no mention of his original seal points having PB genes.
From his posts on TAF i'm confident they didn't have it.
He also added the BG gene to MANY genotypes,and those detailed results never mentioned any of those fish carrying PB either.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Right now the only plans I have are to get a spawning pair or two. After that there are no plans. At this point I suspect that the double blue and double Bulgarian Green genes are modifying the Black gene to produce the seal points. Not sure if you would have Seal Points without both. Of course that is probably the point.
Raiko made no mention of his original seal points having PB genes.
From his posts on TAF i'm confident they didn't have it.
He also added the BG gene to MANY genotypes,and those detailed results never mentioned any of those fish carrying PB either.
...BS Greg and you know it.....every genetic scrip produced had at least 'het' pb.....I made a point of looking it..... he couldn't even produce a bg/bg stand alone angel.....even Dena received a hodpodge of genes in hers......if it was so simple then someone would have gotten a stand alone bg/bg angel by now and had a gold mine.....Lord knows many have tried..huh huh
Same thing happening to Pterophyllum
....posted in TAS today...but he's still trying.... |^|
""Update on batch #3
I've always said that in trying to identify what's going on with a new gene, that it's not always necessary to cross to a wildtype silver, so long as you can clearly identify the influences of the other gene(s) in the mix....
Well, here I am over 3 months on and I'm still trying to work out exactly what I have!
It would appear that I may well have got the genotype of both parents wrong. In order to help work out exactly what's going on I've repaired the male with a different female and I'll post more on that in a week or two when I'm 100% sure of what I have in the mix.
So watch this space. ""
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Right now the only plans I have are to get a spawning pair or two. After that there are no plans. At this point I suspect that the double blue and double Bulgarian Green genes are modifying the Black gene to produce the seal points. Not sure if you would have Seal Points without both. Of course that is probably the point.
Raiko made no mention of his original seal points having PB genes.
From his posts on TAF i'm confident they didn't have it.
He also added the BG gene to MANY genotypes,and those detailed results never mentioned any of those fish carrying PB either.
...BS Greg and you know it.....every genetic scrip produced had at least 'het' pb.....I made a point of looking it..... he couldn't even produce a bg/bg stand alone angel.....even Dena received a hodpodge of genes in hers......if it was so simple then someone would have gotten a stand alone bg/bg angel by now and had a gold mine.....Lord knows many have tried..huh huh
He had post after post that showed the DETAILED results of his crosses.
He added the (BG ) gene to just about EVERY genotype possible,if not all.
DETAILED results of all of those crossed,those results NEVER mentioned ANY of the offspring carrying PB.( The PB gene was added in LATER crosses)
He was trying to determine how the BG affected different genotypes,it would be CRAZY to use PB fish in those crosses,because the PB fish would ALSO affect phenotype.
He DID do crosses with PB fish at a LATER time.
AFTER he pretty much exhausted all other crosses to NON PB fish.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 09:43:04 AM
Any plans to breed the PB out of any of them?
If i'm figuring right you would get 50% non PB's after 2 crosses.
And then would have to do another cross to determine which of those are don't carry.
Right now the only plans I have are to get a spawning pair or two. After that there are no plans. At this point I suspect that the double blue and double Bulgarian Green genes are modifying the Black gene to produce the seal points. Not sure if you would have Seal Points without both. Of course that is probably the point.
Raiko made no mention of his original seal points having PB genes.
From his posts on TAF i'm confident they didn't have it.
He also added the BG gene to MANY genotypes,and those detailed results never mentioned any of those fish carrying PB either.
...BS Greg and you know it.....every genetic scrip produced had at least 'het' pb.....I made a point of looking it..... he couldn't even produce a bg/bg stand alone angel.....even Dena received a hodpodge of genes in hers......if it was so simple then someone would have gotten a stand alone bg/bg angel by now and had a gold mine.....Lord knows many have tried..huh huh
He had post after post that showed the DETAILED results of his crosses.
He added the (BG ) gene to just about EVERY genotype possible,if not all.
DETAILED results of all of those crossed,those results NEVER mentioned ANY of the offspring carrying PB.( The PB gene was added in LATER crosses)
He was trying to determine how the BG affected different genotypes,it would be CRAZY to use PB fish in those crosses,because the PB fish would ALSO affect phenotype.
He DID do crosses with PB fish at a LATER time.
AFTER he pretty much exhausted all other crosses to NON PB fish.
....I agree, he has no idea what he has/had.....and the pb was there on his first exchanges on TAFII,,,,,...but I think Rob will stay determined to find out what's going on......I know, if possible, I'll cross to my blue glitters....and then see what happens with sibling crosses.... huh....BGS with glitter.... huh
Here is 1 example I got from Raiko's facebook page.
He calls it a (Albino Bulgarian Seal Point angelfish),which PROBABLY should have been described as ALBINO BULGARIAN GREEN.
It makes no mention of carrying any PB genes.
One of his YouTube videos,it lists the genetics of both fish,no mention of a PB gene.
This video DOES list them as having PB.
So it's not something that he just leaves out because it's assumed that they ALL carry PB.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 01:33:16 PM
One of his YouTube videos,it lists the genetics of both fish,no mention of a PB gene.
...he must have forgot it.....LOLOLOLOL
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
He knows what the genetics are for the( BSP ) Bulgarian Seal Point.
He posted them on TAF.
(IF) I remember correctly they have a single dose of D,and are bg/bg.
I DON'T remember if they had gold also.
NOT to be confused with(BG) Bulgarian Green fish.
Which can be ANY genotypes with the addition of double dose of BG.
[/quote]
....I agree, he has no idea what he has/had.....and the pb was there on his first exchanges on TAFII,,,,,...but I think Rob will stay determined to find out what's going on......I know, if possible, I'll cross to my blue glitters....and then see what happens with sibling crosses.... huh....BGS with glitter.... huh
[/quote]
I was wondering if you planned on crossing them with your glitters.
POSSIBLE changing of the glitter COLOR would be really nice.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
He knows what the genetics are for the( BSP ) Bulgarian Seal Point.
He posted them on TAF.
(IF) I remember correctly they have a single dose of D,and are bg/bg.
I DON'T remember if they had gold also.
NOT to be confused with(BG) Bulgarian Green fish.
Which can be ANY genotypes with the addition of double dose of BG.
...how can he know what he has when the gene it's based on can't be proven?.....it's all 'what if' speculation..... huh
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 04:31:41 PM
....I agree, he has no idea what he has/had.....and the pb was there on his first exchanges on TAFII,,,,,...but I think Rob will stay determined to find out what's going on......I know, if possible, I'll cross to my blue glitters....and then see what happens with sibling crosses.... huh....BGS with glitter.... huh
[/quote]
I was wondering if you planned on crossing them with your glitters.
POSSIBLE changing of the glitter COLOR would be really nice.
[/quote]
..I'm not sure what to expect until sibling crosses reveal results....but, yes, I'm curious if some surprises show pop up..... :)
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:38:37 PM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
He knows what the genetics are for the( BSP ) Bulgarian Seal Point.
He posted them on TAF.
(IF) I remember correctly they have a single dose of D,and are bg/bg.
I DON'T remember if they had gold also.
NOT to be confused with(BG) Bulgarian Green fish.
Which can be ANY genotypes with the addition of double dose of BG.
...how can he know what he has when the gene it's based on can't be proven?.....it's all 'what if' speculation..... huh
I don't follow you AT ALL.
WHAT exactly do you expect him to do PROVE the BG gene.
The ONLY thing i can think of is COUNTS,because you mentioned that BEFORE when we were talking about this,and he MIGHT have done that already TOO.
He has added the BG gene in double dose to just about EVERY genoype, if not all.
And AS FAR AS I KNOW has changed the expression on ALL of them.
I see it as doing VERY simular things to them as in double dose PB.
It's NOT some hit or misss thing,with no idea what the outcome will be.
He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:38:37 PM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
He knows what the genetics are for the( BSP ) Bulgarian Seal Point.
He posted them on TAF.
(IF) I remember correctly they have a single dose of D,and are bg/bg.
I DON'T remember if they had gold also.
NOT to be confused with(BG) Bulgarian Green fish.
Which can be ANY genotypes with the addition of double dose of BG.
...how can he know what he has when the gene it's based on can't be proven?.....it's all 'what if' speculation..... huh
I don't follow you AT ALL.
WHAT exactly do you expect him to do PROVE the BG gene.
The ONLY thing i can think of is COUNTS,because you mentioned that BEFORE when we were talking about this,and he MIGHT have done that already TOO.
He has added the BG gene in double dose to just about EVERY genoype, if not all.
And AS FAR AS I KNOW has changed the expression on ALL of them.
I see it as doing VERY simular things to them as in double dose PB.
It's NOT some hit or misss thing,with no idea what the outcome will be.
He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
...you must own stock, huh?......he's proven nothing without isolating what he thinks he has......basically he has a name for the unknown, and is working with it.....all his work info means naught without a conclusion....do I like it...sure...bit what am I really liking huh......script info is non conclusive if certain characters are merely symbols of what if..?....
..your explanations contain a lot of assumptions around his thinking and methodology....
"He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and
i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 05:29:31 PM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:38:37 PM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
He knows what the genetics are for the( BSP ) Bulgarian Seal Point.
He posted them on TAF.
(IF) I remember correctly they have a single dose of D,and are bg/bg.
I DON'T remember if they had gold also.
NOT to be confused with(BG) Bulgarian Green fish.
Which can be ANY genotypes with the addition of double dose of BG.
...how can he know what he has when the gene it's based on can't be proven?.....it's all 'what if' speculation..... huh
I don't follow you AT ALL.
WHAT exactly do you expect him to do PROVE the BG gene.
The ONLY thing i can think of is COUNTS,because you mentioned that BEFORE when we were talking about this,and he MIGHT have done that already TOO.
He has added the BG gene in double dose to just about EVERY genoype, if not all.
And AS FAR AS I KNOW has changed the expression on ALL of them.
I see it as doing VERY simular things to them as in double dose PB.
It's NOT some hit or misss thing,with no idea what the outcome will be.
He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
...you must own stock, huh?......he's proven nothing without isolating what he thinks he has......basically he has a name for the unknown, and is working with it.....all his work info means naught without a conclusion....do I like it...sure...bit what am I really liking huh......script info is non conclusive if certain characters are merely symbols of what if..?....
..your explanations contain a lot of assumptions around his thinking and methodology....
"He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
Contact him,and ask him the questions you have.
Like what the genetics of BSP is,i'm confident he can tell you exactly.
Also since you now have BG fish you can do crosses of your own,although you would probably want to breed the PB out of some of them first.
Or you will never know how BG effects the different genotypes.
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 05:51:41 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 05:29:31 PM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:38:37 PM
Quote from: ghonk on September 20, 2018, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on September 20, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
Seriously tho.....it seems that he really found a nice phenotype in the Bulgarian seal points.....but no one has any idea how it occurred....there are now too many variables out there for anyone to have a chance at isolating what could be a new gene. Many have tried, and many have given up. Who will get the brass ring?...and on it goes.....
He knows what the genetics are for the( BSP ) Bulgarian Seal Point.
He posted them on TAF.
(IF) I remember correctly they have a single dose of D,and are bg/bg.
I DON'T remember if they had gold also.
NOT to be confused with(BG) Bulgarian Green fish.
Which can be ANY genotypes with the addition of double dose of BG.
...how can he know what he has when the gene it's based on can't be proven?.....it's all 'what if' speculation..... huh
I don't follow you AT ALL.
WHAT exactly do you expect him to do PROVE the BG gene.
The ONLY thing i can think of is COUNTS,because you mentioned that BEFORE when we were talking about this,and he MIGHT have done that already TOO.
He has added the BG gene in double dose to just about EVERY genoype, if not all.
And AS FAR AS I KNOW has changed the expression on ALL of them.
I see it as doing VERY simular things to them as in double dose PB.
It's NOT some hit or misss thing,with no idea what the outcome will be.
He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
...you must own stock, huh?......he's proven nothing without isolating what he thinks he has......basically he has a name for the unknown, and is working with it.....all his work info means naught without a conclusion....do I like it...sure...bit what am I really liking huh......script info is non conclusive if certain characters are merely symbols of what if..?....
..your explanations contain a lot of assumptions around his thinking and methodology....
"He can produce ANY genotype with a double dose of BG,and i'm betting the siblings will look very similar to each other,and will breed true to those genetics.
Contact him,and ask him the questions you have.
Like what the genetics of BSP is,i'm confident he can tell you exactly.
Also since you now have BG fish you can do crosses of your own,although you would probably want to breed the PB out of some of them first.
Or you will never know how BG effects the different genotypes.
...why not...?.....someone has to do it.... :D
What's your opinion on the genetics of the (Bulgarian Green) gene Dale?
Did you see Raiko's thread on TAF about his crosses?
My opinion is that the Bulgarian Green seems to exist although I have no Idea if it is on its own locus or is an allele on some other locus. At this point I am only interested in the Seal Point Phenotype. I mated a Seal Point with a Blue Silver and got the expected results. And Seal Point to Het bg seems to work out. My thought at this point is that the bg gene might not express by its self, but just modifies the expression of other genes. I really don't have enough experience with it yet to be able to do any more than guess.
Yes I saw Raikos posts. What I saw was "this fish is x/x" with no explanation on how he knew what the genetics were. He seemed to randomly mate his bg fish to anything and everything he could. I never saw any sort of a fry count to verify anything he did. And I never saw any effort on his part to get a +/+,bg/bg,+/+ fish.
Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
My opinion is that the Bulgarian Green seems to exist although I have no Idea if it is on its own locus or is an allele on some other locus. At this point I am only interested in the Seal Point Phenotype. I mated a Seal Point with a Blue Silver and got the expected results. And Seal Point to Het bg seems to work out. My thought at this point is that the bg gene might not express by its self, but just modifies the expression of other genes. I really don't have enough experience with it yet to be able to do any more than guess.
Yes I saw Raikos posts. What I saw was "this fish is x/x" with no explanation on how he knew what the genetics were. He seemed to randomly mate his bg fish to anything and everything he could. I never saw any sort of a fry count to verify anything he did. And I never saw any effort on his part to get a +/+,bg/bg,+/+ fish.
Thanks for your reply.
I guess you and Jon see his breeding and the results he posted differently then I do.
I personally think he did a fine job of trying to determine where the BG gene was located.
Greg
There is one guy in England working with the Bulgarian Green Gene. He has posted here:
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations and on the TAFII forum that doesn't exist anymore. As far as I know right now he is the only one besides Joel and myself that has them.
Quote from: waterboy on September 21, 2018, 12:10:25 PM
Greg
There is one guy in England working with the Bulgarian Green Gene. He has posted here:
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations and on the TAFII forum that doesn't exist anymore. As far as I know right now he is the only one besides Joel and myself that has them.
yup...same as the link I posted above...
Duh, 10 minute memory. Maybe I should pay attention to what I am doing.........nah.
Here you go Jon,you mentioned before Raiko needed to ISOLATE the b/g gene.
I assume you mean a +/+-bg/bg fish,don't see how it could get any more isolated then that.
While checking out some of his videos I found this.
I THOUGHT I remembered seeing he has those fish before,but wasn't sure.
The video is (5 YEARS) old,to this is a been there done that thing in my mind.
He lists them as (bg/bg) and (S/+ - bg/bg).
50% wild blood from Manacapuru (F2 generation)
....without seeing the other siblings this is just a guess of a second cross of what?....S/+ bg/bg ghost?...they seem to have stripes?....a cross back to a wild parent obviously because he says 75% wild....if so, can't be bg/bg..,. because the wild parent could not have bg/bg....
Quote from: Mugwump on October 02, 2018, 09:30:10 AM
....without seeing the other siblings this is just a guess of a second cross of what?....S/+ bg/bg ghost?...they seem to have stripes?....a cross back to a wild parent obviously because he says 75% wild....if so, can't be bg/bg..,. because the wild parent could not have bg/bg....
Here is how he describes them the video.
It says 50% not 75%.
Also the fish clearly look like BG fish,i doubt they would be that color in single dose.
He CLEARLY states what the fish are,just like he does in MANY of his posts at TAF.
He isn't just GUESSING what the genetics are.
He has done multiple generation crosses to confirm his breeding stock.
Early in his work with BG someone suggested he try to get the gene accepted by TAS.
He said he had NO INTERESTED in trying to do so.
The reason being of the way Ken's findings were originally dismissed.
I can't think of ANYONE other the Ken, and Dr. Norton decades ago that has done as many crosses to confirm their findings.
Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 02, 2018, 09:30:10 AM
....without seeing the other siblings this is just a guess of a second cross of what?....S/+ bg/bg ghost?...they seem to have stripes?....a cross back to a wild parent obviously because he says 75% wild....if so, can't be bg/bg..,. because the wild parent could not have bg/bg....
Here is how he describes them the video.
..I know.....but doesn't make sense....
Maybe Dale will see something that I'm not...... huh
When Raiko first exported his fish a wanted some BAD,which included some non PB fish,unfortunately I wasn't able to get some at that time.
I assumed they would be fairly easy to find at a later date,once people started breeding them,but now that's not the case.
Seems like most of the available stock from Raiko are now the ones with PB.
They are great looking fish too,but would be much harder to work with if interested in working STRICTLY BG fish,since you would need to breed PB out of the first,or possibly at the same time with some of your crosses.
Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 11:06:46 AM
When Raiko first exported his fish a wanted some BAD,which included some non PB fish,unfortunately I wasn't able to get some at that time.
I assumed they would be fairly easy to find at a later date,once people started breeding them,but now that's not the case.
Seems like most of the available stock from Raiko are now the ones with PB.
They are great looking fish too,but would be much harder to work with if interested in working STRICTLY BG fish,since you would need to breed PB out of the first,or possibly at the same time with some of your crosses.
Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......
"Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......"
Other then SOME having PB how were they a hodge podge,they were ALL BG fish as far as I know.
Do you consider any (PB) fish that aren't blue silvers (+/+-pb/pb) a hodge podge,and damn near impossible to work with,because they might have additional genes?
It's no different with the BG fish,if it is double dose BG then it's a BG fish.
Now i'm NOT talking about( BSP ) fish,just BG in general.
Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 01:57:57 PM
"Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......"
Other then SOME having PB how were they a hodge podge,they were ALL BG fish as far as I know.
Do you consider any (PB) fish that aren't blue silvers (+/+-pb/pb) a hodge podge,and damn near impossible to work with,because they might have additional genes?
It's no different with the BG fish,if it is double dose BG then it's a BG fish.
Now i'm NOT talking about( BSP ) fish,just BG in general.
.....you leave out that pb fish had counts and crosses done with counts when the gene was first recognized.....bg has had no such luxury....pb crosses can be done with the results predicted.....bg crosses have never been tracked to provide such expectations........bg crosses were done sure....but in a 'what if' environment in hopes of something new shedding light on it's characteristics.....then phenotypes were made without any quantifying genetic back up.......Rob is working with them somewhat like Raiko did...but is getting counts to provide clues as to wtf he's actually got.....all which could have alleviated some of the issues folks are concerned about now if done from the get go.....
Isolating any gene can be a pain in the ass....ridding a line of a gene(s) can be a pain in the ass too......but it's a necessary evil to discover the truth about genes...the more genes present the more time consuming it can get.....it's bad enough with known genes, let alone an unknown gene....it seems not many folks want to take that on...or if they do....give up because of the intricacies involved....especially with multiple recessive genes in the mix.....
Quote from: Mugwump on October 02, 2018, 02:46:17 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 01:57:57 PM
"Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......"
Other then SOME having PB how were they a hodge podge,they were ALL BG fish as far as I know.
Do you consider any (PB) fish that aren't blue silvers (+/+-pb/pb) a hodge podge,and damn near impossible to work with,because they might have additional genes?
It's no different with the BG fish,if it is double dose BG then it's a BG fish.
Now i'm NOT talking about( BSP ) fish,just BG in general.
.....you leave out that pb fish had counts and crosses done with counts when the gene was first recognized.....bg has had no such luxury....pb crosses can be done with the results predicted.....bg crosses have never been tracked to provide such expectations........bg crosses were done sure....but in a 'what if' environment in hopes of something new shedding light on it's characteristics.....then phenotypes were made without any quantifying genetic back up.......Rob is working with them somewhat like Raiko did...but is getting counts to provide clues as to wtf he's actually got.....all which could have alleviated some of the issues folks are concerned about now if done from the get go.....
Isolating any gene can be a pain in the ass....ridding a line of a gene(s) can be a pain in the ass too......but it's a necessary evil to discover the truth about genes...the more genes present the more time consuming it can get.....it's bad enough with known genes, let alone an unknown gene....it seems not many folks want to take that on...or if they do....give up because of the intricacies involved....especially with multiple recessive genes in the mix.....
I can't remember if Ken did counts of his fish when he first started doing his crosses,but I assume he did.
But the PB gene wasn't recognized by TAS until MANY years later when Damen did independent counts.
Raiko may have did counts too,maybe detailed of maybe estimates.
I doubt he would go through the trouble of doing the crosses to almost all if not all genotypes and DISREGRARD what the results were as far as genotypes and/or phenotypes produced.
That would make no sense and defeat the purpose of doing the crosses.
He DID do multiple generation crosses with at least some of his fish to verify the genetics of his crosses.
Like I suggested before,contact him with the questions you have.
I would do it but possibly wouldn't ask the questions that you want to know answers to.
He's a member of Angelfish Enthusiasts and Angelfish Breeders.
As well as having his own facebook page if you aren't already friends.
Yes, I worked with Damon when the counts were done.....I'm on the Stds Committee for TAS...
....the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with any work done with bg......nor it's path to being recognized....
Quote from: Mugwump on October 03, 2018, 04:34:24 AM
Yes, I worked with Damon when the counts were done.....I'm on the Stds Committee for TAS...
....the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with any work done with bg......nor it's path to being recognized....
Yes I know the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with bg,didn't say it did.
As far as the BG gene being recognized,if you are talking about by TAS that's never going to happen.
Is TAS even active anymore,or relevant at this time.
Their forum sure is dead, gets less hits then the cubs did in the last 3 games. ;D
Quote from: ghonk on October 03, 2018, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 03, 2018, 04:34:24 AM
Yes, I worked with Damon when the counts were done.....I'm on the Stds Committee for TAS...
....the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with any work done with bg......nor it's path to being recognized....
....Yes I know the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with bg,didn't say it did.
..you mentioned it why then?
""I can't remember if Ken did counts of his fish when he first started doing his crosses,but I assume he did.
But the PB gene wasn't recognized by TAS until MANY years later when Damen did independent counts.""
As far as the BG gene being recognized,if you are talking about by TAS that's never going to happen.
Is TAS even active anymore,or relevant at this time.
Their forum sure is dead, gets less hits then the cubs did in the last 3 games. ;D
...yes, sadly it's not what it once was.....recognition.....??.....I believe Raiko mentioned once that he didn't care about getting TAS recognition.... huh
Yes Raiko said he had no interest in recognition from TAS.
He said because of the way Ken was treated.
Just because Raiko didn't post counts of all of his crosses doesn't mean he didn't do them.
Possibly didn't want to be bothered with the skepticism of his findings,which did happen to Ken.
Quote from: ghonk on October 03, 2018, 01:25:17 PM
Yes Raiko said he had no interest in recognition from TAS.
He said because of the way Ken was treated.
(http://just%20because%20raiko%20didn't%20post%20counts%20of%20all%20of%20his%20crosses%20doesn't%20mean%20he%20didn't%20do%20them.)
Possibly didn't want to be bothered with the skepticism of his findings,which did happen to Ken.
.....LOL...oh I'm sure...... wfwf
A lot of skepticism on the bg. Just like the pb then like Greg mentioned. On my pair, I've always had consistent fry...Pinoys (double dark and single D) , blue silver, platinum BSP, And BSP's ( both double dark and single D). Nothing surprising as Raiko told everyone what the genetics of BSP angels.
I've had 8 batches so far and consistent on all and Over a hundred babies each time. I'm not gonna bother to count fry. The guy from UK can do that if he wants to.
At this time, I had to separate my pair (BSP x Pinoy from Dale) and will attempt to breed out the pb.
Ive settled to using one of my female Koi. I figured the Koi will be okay bec this is what Raiko used when he started his project.
Quote from: Babers on October 04, 2018, 04:04:29 PM
A lot of skepticism on the bg. Just like the pb then like Greg mentioned. On my pair, I've always had consistent fry...Pinoys (double dark and single D) , blue silver, platinum BSP, And BSP's ( both double dark and single D). Nothing surprising as Raiko told everyone what the genetics of BSP angels.
I've had 8 batches so far and consistent on all and Over a hundred babies each time. I'm not gonna bother to count fry. The guy from UK can do that if he wants to.
At this time, I had to separate my pair (BSP x Pinoy from Dale) and will attempt to breed out the pb.
Ive settled to using one of my female Koi. I figured the Koi will be okay bec this is what Raiko used when he started his project.
...nice to know that you're getting good spawns....sure they're consistent...the genes don't change.... :)....highlighted above is one of the big reasons that pb took so long...no one wanted to be bothered doing it......now here comes bg?....same thing...lotsa crossings, no records, and no clear way of phenotype naming possible except bsp.....how is anyone going to do a clear examination of a possible new gene without identifying what exactly is produced...??....there is no structure that will make the work ..work.....
..It's been over 5 years and nothing has progressed ..nada,,,think about it....only 3-4 here in the states with bg stock....if the big dogs thought there was something there...they'd be flooding the market and rolling in $$$'s.......and that's just not happening, is it?.....following the $$$'s can tell a story too.......
good luck... |^|
Quote from: Mugwump on October 04, 2018, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: Babers on October 04, 2018, 04:04:29 PM
A lot of skepticism on the bg. Just like the pb then like Greg mentioned. On my pair, I've always had consistent fry...Pinoys (double dark and single D) , blue silver, platinum BSP, And BSP's ( both double dark and single D). Nothing surprising as Raiko told everyone what the genetics of BSP angels.
I've had 8 batches so far and consistent on all and Over a hundred babies each time. I'm not gonna bother to count fry. The guy from UK can do that if he wants to.
At this time, I had to separate my pair (BSP x Pinoy from Dale) and will attempt to breed out the pb.
Ive settled to using one of my female Koi. I figured the Koi will be okay bec this is what Raiko used when he started his project.
...nice to know that you're getting good spawns....sure they're consistent...the genes don't change.... :)....highlighted above is one of the big reasons that pb took so long...no one wanted to be bothered doing it......now here comes bg?....same thing...lotsa crossings, no records, and no clear way of phenotype naming possible except bsp.....how is anyone going to do a clear examination of a possible new gene without identifying what exactly is produced...??....there is no structure that will make the work ..work.....
..It's been over 5 years and nothing has progressed ..nada,,,think about it....only 3-4 here in the states with bg stock....if the big dogs thought there was something there...they'd be flooding the market and rolling in $$$'s.......and that's just not happening, is it?.....following the $$$'s can tell a story too.......
good luck... |^|
"sure they're consistent...the genes don't change"
Exacty,they breed true,which is all that matters.
The only thing left to do now is name the genotypes.
We already have Bulgarian Seal Point (BSP) for a D/+-bg/bg fish.
Add a double dose of stripeless and call it Seal Point Blusher,or make up a name for it.
Call a +/+-bg/bg fish a Green Silver.
Add a single dose of stripeless call it a Green Silver Ghost,add a double dose of stripeless call it a Green Silver Blusher.
Sofia is the capital,yes I had to google it. ;D
Name one after that.
"sure they're consistent...the genes don't change"
Exacty,they breed true,which is all that matters.
breeds true to multi-phenotypes.....so...and.... huh....now what?
...........
We already have Bulgarian Seal Point (BSP) for a D/+-bg/bg fish.
Add a double dose of stripeless and call it Seal Point Blusher,or make up a name for it.
..again "so" "and".....what do you call the rest ? huh
...........
Call a +/+-bg/bg fish a Green Silver.
Add a single dose of stripeless call it a Green Silver Ghost,add a double dose of stripeless call it a Green Silver Blusher.
..oh...now you're going to toss out phenotype names huh....got a list?....and how do you get to those angels...elimination crosses huh......any idea what to expect....where do you start?...no one has done it.....
..the seal points carry pb/pb....is that bg hybrid?.....
Quote from: Mugwump on October 04, 2018, 07:38:59 PM
..the seal points carry pb/pb....is that bg hybrid?.....
You're saying (IF) a Seal Point had the ADDITION of pb/pb,correct?
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/10/03/amazonas-excerpt-the-next-big-angelfish-gene/
http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/10/03/bulgarian-green-angelfish-genetics-arrive-in-the-us/
...Ah....David's shipment...... :)....and?....made his $$$'s is all.....
..I saw your post on Angelfish Geeks looking for Nanacapuru......good luck..might be some out there... huh
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 05:40:45 AM
..I saw your post on Angelfish Geeks looking for Nanacapuru......good luck..might be some out there... huh
About to give up on finding some,it's one of the few that interest me now.
Tank raised wilds are another,they don't seem to be available much either.
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 06:04:48 AM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 05:40:45 AM
..I saw your post on Angelfish Geeks looking for Nanacapuru......good luck..might be some out there... huh
About to give up on finding some,it's one of the few that interest me now.
Tank raised wilds are another,they don't seem to be available much either.
Looks like Joel has them ?
http://www.mugwump-fish-world.com//index.php?topic=7855.msg67622#msg67622 (http://www.mugwump-fish-world.com//index.php?topic=7855.msg67622#msg67622)
Not anymore,i asked him already.
I found someone a few months ago that had adults but no spawns yet.
I asked him to let me know when he had some available, hadn't heard back from him so I just messaged him to see what's going on.
Quote from: Babers on October 04, 2018, 04:04:29 PM
A lot of skepticism on the bg. Just like the pb then like Greg mentioned. On my pair, I've always had consistent fry...Pinoys (double dark and single D) , blue silver, platinum BSP, And BSP's ( both double dark and single D). Nothing surprising as Raiko told everyone what the genetics of BSP angels.
I've had 8 batches so far and consistent on all and Over a hundred babies each time. I'm not gonna bother to count fry. The guy from UK can do that if he wants to.
At this time, I had to separate my pair (BSP x Pinoy from Dale) and will attempt to breed out the pb.
Ive settled to using one of my female Koi. I figured the Koi will be okay bec this is what Raiko used when he started his project.
Great job Joel. My spawns have been inconsistent at best. Blue silver het spawned with a BSP male once (abt 30) then never again. Hybrid Pinoy (D/g) spawned with the other BSP male twice (20 and 50) then went to 5-10 eggs per spawn. Her last viable spawn had 5 survivors, those are the ones I traded to Jon. Replaced the Blue Silver with a Gold het, so far 1 spawn, 3 wigglers. Replaced the Pinoy with a Blue Silver, no spawns yet. I have a tank of hets that are all female so I have plenty to try to get to spawn, they spawn with each other but give up when I put them with a male. I am growing out the 3 small spawns in hopes of getting a viable pair or two.
I think you should do fry counts on yours. Doesn't take that long and might help someone else in the future. I have counts for the ones I have but not real sure what to do with them.
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
I've got spawn #7 and #8 here. I can still count the fry on both spawns since I haven't mixed them with the other batches yet. I have spawn #8 still in the jar. Swimming outside the jar in the 10 gal tank is spawn #7.
The Angels I left from my oldest spawn are about dollar-hd size at this time. I'll cross 2 BSP angels then to prove that they breed true...100% BSP babies. (Hopefully Dale will do the same). Just because no one has been successful yet (after Raiko) in breeding true BSP, doesn't mean they don't breed true.
Quote from: Babers on October 05, 2018, 01:16:13 PM
I've got spawn #7 and #8 here. I can still count the fry on both spawns since I haven't mixed them with the other batches yet. I have spawn #8 still in the jar. Swimming outside the jar in the 10 gal tank is spawn #7.
The Angels I left from my oldest spawn are about dollar-hd size at this time. I'll cross 2 BSP angels then to prove that they breed true...100% BSP babies. (Hopefully Dale will do the same). Just because no one has been successful yet (after Raiko) in breeding true BSP, doesn't mean they don't breed true.
...nice...parents genetics ?.....D/g bg/bg pb/pb ?....I think that's what I have from Dale... huh....
Parents
D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg
D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg
Results
----------------------
25.0% D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg
50.0% D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg
25.0% g/g - pb/pb - bg/bg -
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
.....LOL...you're sure now ????
And maybe D/+, S/+,bg/bg,and maybe D/+,p/p,bg/bg, and maybe D/+,S/S,V/+,bg/bg, and maybe ................. All I know for sure is I have some white fish with dark Dorsal and Anal fins swimming in my tanks that I am calling BSPs. I am pretty confident what their genetics are. As far as any other bg/bg fish are concerned, I haven't decided what to call them. Will probably call them Dale's Greens just to distinguish them from Joel's or Raiko's.
Right now I think Joel should be the authority on them as he seems to be the only one spawning them for now.
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
.....LOL...you're sure now ????
Absolutely.
"Raiko is convinced that what they've found is a previously undiscovered recessive gene, exposed through 10 years of inbreeding with Dark Gold Marble (D/Gm) and Hybrid Dark (D/g) lineages."
Raiko did most if not ALL of his crosses using NON PB fish.
Using PB fish would have changed the Phenotype.
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
.....LOL...you're sure now ????
Absolutely.
"Raiko is convinced that what they've found is a previously undiscovered recessive gene, exposed through 10 years of inbreeding with Dark Gold Marble (D/Gm) and Hybrid Dark (D/g) lineages."
Raiko did most if not ALL of his crosses using NON PB fish.
Using PB fish would have changed the Phenotype.
..Shazam !...you're telepathic too..... huh....most all the bg's that I've seen have at least (1) pb.....
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 02:08:01 PM
And maybe D/+, S/+,bg/bg,and maybe D/+,p/p,bg/bg, and maybe D/+,S/S,V/+,bg/bg, and maybe ................. All I know for sure is I have some white fish with dark Dorsal and Anal fins swimming in my tanks that I am calling BSPs. I am pretty confident what their genetics are. As far as any other bg/bg fish are concerned, I haven't decided what to call them. Will probably call them Dale's Greens just to distinguish them from Joel's or Raiko's.
Right now I think Joel should be the authority on them as he seems to be the only one spawning them for now.
In one of your posts you either said that BPS need to have PB,or you think they need to have PB.
They do not,just making it clear to those that may be lurking what the facts are.
Sure you can still call them BPS WITH the ADDITION of PB,but they don't necessarily need to have PB genes.
I suggested Aqua to indicate the presence of BOTH double dose BG and PB.
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:24:34 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 02:08:01 PM
And maybe D/+, S/+,bg/bg,and maybe D/+,p/p,bg/bg, and maybe D/+,S/S,V/+,bg/bg, and maybe ................. All I know for sure is I have some white fish with dark Dorsal and Anal fins swimming in my tanks that I am calling BSPs. I am pretty confident what their genetics are. As far as any other bg/bg fish are concerned, I haven't decided what to call them. Will probably call them Dale's Greens just to distinguish them from Joel's or Raiko's.
Right now I think Joel should be the authority on them as he seems to be the only one spawning them for now.
In one of your posts you either said that BPS need to have PB,or you think they need to have PB.
They do not,just making it clear to those that may be lurking what the facts are.
Sure you can still call them BPS WITH the ADDITION of PB,but they don't necessarily need to have PB genes.
I suggested Aqua to indicate the presence of BOTH double dose BG and PB.
..huh?.... huh
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
.....LOL...you're sure now ????
Absolutely.
"Raiko is convinced that what they've found is a previously undiscovered recessive gene, exposed through 10 years of inbreeding with Dark Gold Marble (D/Gm) and Hybrid Dark (D/g) lineages."
Raiko did most if not ALL of his crosses using NON PB fish.
Using PB fish would have changed the Phenotype.
..Shazam !...you're telepathic too..... huh....most all the bg's that I've seen have at least (1) pb.....
LOL,to need to contact Raiko like I suggested.
To bad TAF is no longer,it was layed out clearly in Raiko's posts.
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
.....LOL...you're sure now ????
Absolutely.
"Raiko is convinced that what they've found is a previously undiscovered recessive gene, exposed through 10 years of inbreeding with Dark Gold Marble (D/Gm) and Hybrid Dark (D/g) lineages."
Raiko did most if not ALL of his crosses using NON PB fish.
Using PB fish would have changed the Phenotype.
..Shazam !...you're telepathic too..... huh....most all the bg's that I've seen have at least (1) pb.....
LOL,to need to contact Raiko like I suggested.
To bad TAF is no longer,it was layed out clearly in Raiko's posts.
...why?.....with your mind link, it's covered isn't it Spock?.... :D
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: ghonk on October 04, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
If they are double dose PB and BG call them Aqua.
Hey got any Aqua Seal Point Blushers for sale. ;D
Still need to figure out how to note the Albino Dantum gene too.
(ad) maybe?
If they are double dose pb and bg with a dark gene they are Seal Points. Until they get officially approved by TAS I think you can call them anything you want. Probably can anyway, some people do it. I don't think there are any names for the other double dose bg phenotypes, Bulgarian Green maybe.
They DO NOT need to have any PB genes to be Seal Points.
A BSP is D/+-bg/bg,and maybe D/D-bg/bg.
Raiko's original BSP had no PB genes.
.....LOL...you're sure now ????
Absolutely.
"Raiko is convinced that what they've found is a previously undiscovered recessive gene, exposed through 10 years of inbreeding with Dark Gold Marble (D/Gm) and Hybrid Dark (D/g) lineages."
Raiko did most if not ALL of his crosses using NON PB fish.
Using PB fish would have changed the Phenotype.
..Shazam !...you're telepathic too..... huh....most all the bg's that I've seen have at least (1) pb.....
LOL,to need to contact Raiko like I suggested.
To bad TAF is no longer,it was layed out clearly in Raiko's posts.
...why?.....with your mind link, it's covered isn't it Spock?.... :D
Yes that's right.
Come on Joel,set Jon straight. ;D
Quote from: ghonk on October 05, 2018, 02:24:34 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 05, 2018, 02:08:01 PM
And maybe D/+, S/+,bg/bg,and maybe D/+,p/p,bg/bg, and maybe D/+,S/S,V/+,bg/bg, and maybe ................. All I know for sure is I have some white fish with dark Dorsal and Anal fins swimming in my tanks that I am calling BSPs. I am pretty confident what their genetics are. As far as any other bg/bg fish are concerned, I haven't decided what to call them. Will probably call them Dale's Greens just to distinguish them from Joel's or Raiko's.
Right now I think Joel should be the authority on them as he seems to be the only one spawning them for now.
In one of your posts you either said that BPS need to have PB,or you think they need to have PB.
They do not,just making it clear to those that may be lurking what the facts are.
Sure you can still call them BPS WITH the ADDITION of PB,but they don't necessarily need to have PB genes.
I suggested Aqua to indicate the presence of BOTH double dose BG and PB.
As far as I am concerned the ones I have are D/+(or D/g),pb/pb,bg/bg and they are seal points, therefore all the BSPs I know about have a blue gene. I know Raiko published pictures of a lot of fish with supposed genetics, but he never proved anything. You can believe anything you want to of course. How about Platinum Points for the ones with black fins and Platinum Greens for the ones with white fins. Anybody can make up their own names.
Quote
Results
----------------------
25.0% D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg
50.0% D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg
25.0% g/g - pb/pb - bg/bg -
Yes, this is how they will look like.
But to an untrained eye, they will say only ONE of them is a BSP...I think (I'm assuming) this is why Raiko didn't introduce the other variants, so as to prevent confusion. (Variants meaning D/D or g/g)
Although these angels have the pb, It really doesn't matter. The bg is independent.
This is a blushing BSP with no pb
Quote from: Babers on October 05, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
Quote
Results
----------------------
25.0% D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg
50.0% D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg
25.0% g/g - pb/pb - bg/bg -
Yes, this is how they will look like.
But to an untrained eye, they will say only ONE of them is a BSP...I think (I'm assuming) this is why Raiko didn't introduce the other variants, so as to prevent confusion. (Variants meaning D/D or g/g)
Although these angels have the pb, It really doesn't matter. The bg is independent.
..please elaborate....bsp needs a dark gene for the finage, right....then ? g/g - pb/pb - bg/bg can't be bsp....?.....
Quote from: Mugwump on October 05, 2018, 05:16:49 PM
Quote from: Babers on October 05, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
Quote
Results
----------------------
25.0% D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg
50.0% D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg
25.0% g/g - pb/pb - bg/bg -
Yes, this is how they will look like.
But to an untrained eye, they will say only ONE of them is a BSP...I think (I'm assuming) this is why Raiko didn't introduce the other variants, so as to prevent confusion. (Variants meaning D/D or g/g)
Although these angels have the pb, It really doesn't matter. The bg is independent.
..please elaborate....bsp needs a dark gene for the finage, right....then ? g/g - pb/pb - bg/bg can't be bsp....?.....
LOL you can call anything you want a BSP. g/g,pb/pb,/bg/bg = Platinum Bulgarian. Someone should come up with a good name for non BSPs with bg/bg.
bg/bg = BSP. Regardless of the D.
Just like the pb/pb =Philippine Blue
When David first imported the BSP, some people who bought fish from him said the dark fins disappeared when the angels got older....did that mean the fish is not BSP anymore?
The g/g bg/bg still has a tint of dark fins, although not as pronounced as the D/+ or D/g. Will the fins get lighter as the mature on the platinums? huh. I know Raiko mentioned the Platinum BSP's on one of his posts before.
Quote from: Babers on October 05, 2018, 07:49:39 PM
bg/bg = BSP. Regardless of the D.
Just like the pb/pb =Philippine Blue
When David first imported the BSP, some people who bought fish from him said the dark fins disappeared when the angels got older....did that mean the fish is not BSP anymore?
The g/g bg/bg still has a tint of dark fins, although not as pronounced as the D/+ or D/g. Will the fins get lighter as the mature on the platinums? huh. I know Raiko mentioned the Platinum BSP's on one of his posts before.
...so you're saying bg/bg is bsp, so bg/bg is not Bulgarian green then?....the bsp was named as one specific phenotype as I remember?....not the gene itself...
The way I understood it was (BSP) has a Dark gene and a double dose of BG ,like a Pinoy has a Dark gene in PB's.
Any fish that DOESN'T have a Dark gene and is double dose BG would just be called a (BG) Bulgarian Green.
I will ask Captain Kirk and get back to you.
Quote from: ghonk on October 06, 2018, 06:19:45 AM
The way I understood it was (BSP) has a Dark gene and a double dose of BG ,like a Pinoy has a Dark gene in PB's.
Any fish that DOESN'T have a Dark gene and is double dose BG would just be called a (BG) Bulgarian Green.
I will ask Captain Kirk and get back to you.
...that's kinda what I thought too.....Joel threw a curve ball tho....
..want me to beam you up?....
"Untrained" ...I meant this word in the most respectful way. I didn't get any training also from the BSP's either. Probably should've used a different word instead. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I apologize if I did. ;D ;D
Anyway, bg/bg= BSP.
Let me explain...
With the fish that I have, I have noticed that some of the platinum babies have darker fins, some doesn't. The difference is very subtle but it's there. If the dark fins is the basis for the BSP along with the bg/bg ofcoarse, then this kind of Platinum are considered BSP.
Hence...g/g pb/pb bg/bg is a BSP. (I don't know if a g/g bg/bg is the same since I only have the one with blue). If D is not the only deciding factor to be a BSP, then bg/bg = BSP
This is my theory. Can't prove it yet since I Have not crossed the Platinum BSP with anything yet. Not sure if Raiko did.
Quote from: ghonk on October 06, 2018, 06:19:45 AM
The way I understood it was (BSP) has a Dark gene and a double dose of BG ,like a Pinoy has a Dark gene in PB's.
Any fish that DOESN'T have a Dark gene and is double dose BG would just be called a (BG) Bulgarian Green.
I will ask Captain Kirk and get back to you.
That is my understanding too. The black finned seal point was named because it reminded someone of a seal point cat. Any bg/bg fish without a dark gene is a bulgarian green something. And yes the black fins fade as they age.
The difference in the Platinums could be bg/+ vs bg/bg.
QuoteThe difference in the Platinums could be bg/+ vs bg/bg.
Exactly Dale. I was also thinking +/bg = platinums and bg/bg = platinums with darker fins.
Again, regardless of fins fading on the platinums when they mature, they're the same as some of David's shipment who's fins faded. Still BSP's.
Quote from: Babers on October 06, 2018, 08:54:25 AM
QuoteThe difference in the Platinums could be bg/+ vs bg/bg.
Exactly Dale. I was also thinking +/bg = platinums and bg/bg = platinums with darker fins.
Again, regardless of fins fading on the platinums when they mature, they're the same as some of David's shipment who's fins faded. Still BSP's.
""Anyway, bg/bg= BSP. "" (Joel)
""Any fish that DOESN'T have a Dark gene and is double dose BG would just be called a (BG) Bulgarian Green."" (Greg)..here's what needs clearing up....BSP is a phenotype from bg/bg's......I agree with Greg and Dale, BSP is a phenotype from bg/bg's.....bg/bg is a Bulgarian green
Yes A BSP is a Bulgarian Green with a dark gene just as a Pinoy is a Philippine Blue with a dark gene. I guess I will have to agree with Greg, the BSP do not necessarily need the blue gene. Although now I am beginning to wonder what the other types of BSP look like (D/Gm - D/M).
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 09:53:29 AM
Yes A BSP is a Bulgarian Green with a dark gene just as a Pinoy is a Philippine Blue with a dark gene. I guess I will have to agree with Greg, the BSP do not necessarily need the blue gene. Although now I am beginning to wonder what the other types of BSP look like (D/Gm - D/M).
...then it would need to be another genotype/phenotype......you can't plop all the bsp varieties under one name
Quote from: Mugwump on October 06, 2018, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 09:53:29 AM
Yes A BSP is a Bulgarian Green with a dark gene just as a Pinoy is a Philippine Blue with a dark gene. I guess I will have to agree with Greg, the BSP do not necessarily need the blue gene. Although now I am beginning to wonder what the other types of BSP look like (D/Gm - D/M).
...then it would need to be another genotype/phenotype......you can't plop all the bsp varieties under one name
I guess you could do it with D/+,D/D and D/g,like in Pinoy's.
I can't remember if double dose BG washes out the marbling in fish with a dark gene,like in a D/Gm or D/M.
Raiko posted pics of marble fish from his crosses,but they might have been het BG from a F1 cross to a non BG.
IF double dose BG washes the marbling you would need to do a cross to confirm their genetics,since you wouldn't likely to be able to tell by viewing them.
Quote from: Mugwump on October 06, 2018, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 09:53:29 AM
Yes A BSP is a Bulgarian Green with a dark gene just as a Pinoy is a Philippine Blue with a dark gene. I guess I will have to agree with Greg, the BSP do not necessarily need the blue gene. Although now I am beginning to wonder what the other types of BSP look like (D/Gm - D/M).
...then it would need to be another genotype/phenotype......you can't plop all the bsp varieties under one name
All the Pinoy varieties are plopped under one name.
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 12:34:41 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 06, 2018, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 09:53:29 AM
Yes A BSP is a Bulgarian Green with a dark gene just as a Pinoy is a Philippine Blue with a dark gene. I guess I will have to agree with Greg, the BSP do not necessarily need the blue gene. Although now I am beginning to wonder what the other types of BSP look like (D/Gm - D/M).
...then it would need to be another genotype/phenotype......you can't plop all the bsp varieties under one name
All the Pinoy varieties are plopped under one name.
....but defined as Pinoy marble, Pinoy smokey, etc.....same as I said above....Pinoy yes, but differentiating phenotypes......
Could be the same for BSP, BSP Smokey, BSP Marble. Right now both D/+ and D/g are named BSP. I guess I have Blue BSP Laces (D/+) and Blue BSP hybrids (D/g), not that anyone really cares. Not real sure yet if I can tell the difference although the D/g should be darker. I do have one dark one that I think is a Blue Double Dark BSP (D/D,pb/pb,bg/bg)
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 04:28:16 PM
Could be the same for BSP, BSP Smokey, BSP Marble. Right now both D/+ and D/g are named BSP. I guess I have Blue BSP Laces (D/+) and Blue BSP hybrids (D/g), not that anyone really cares. Not real sure yet if I can tell the difference although the D/g should be darker. I do have one dark one that I think is a Blue Double Dark BSP (D/D,pb/pb,bg/bg)
,,,makes sense....good names...
..from what I'n seeing, I like the D/g seal points....yours are nice Dale.....that 'plat' looking one must be +/g pb/pb bg/bg....?....it's a rough sucker too...LOL....doesn't like the dark/Pinoy type siblings at all.....LOL....they all sure love blood worms tho.....like Piranha on a dead cow....LOL
Quote from: Mugwump on October 06, 2018, 05:05:52 PM
Quote from: waterboy on October 06, 2018, 04:28:16 PM
Could be the same for BSP, BSP Smokey, BSP Marble. Right now both D/+ and D/g are named BSP. I guess I have Blue BSP Laces (D/+) and Blue BSP hybrids (D/g), not that anyone really cares. Not real sure yet if I can tell the difference although the D/g should be darker. I do have one dark one that I think is a Blue Double Dark BSP (D/D,pb/pb,bg/bg)
,,,makes sense....good names...
..from what I'n seeing, I like the D/g seal points....yours are nice Dale.....that 'plat' looking one must be +/g pb/pb bg/bg....?....it's a rough sucker too...LOL....doesn't like the dark/Pinoy type siblings at all.....LOL....they all sure love blood worms tho.....like Piranha on a dead cow....LOL
It could be or it could be a het +/g,pb/pb,+/bg. I haven't figured out how to tell the difference yet. Just have to breed it to find out I guess.
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations?p=3530#post3530 (http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations?p=3530#post3530)
They all have +/pb or pb/pb.