Male BSP paired with a female Pinoy with +/bg. First time laying eggs as a pair. Hope they fertilize. (Edited)
..pretty pair.....congrat's and good luck |^|
This is a 3" slate. I think she's not done yet.
....that's a good spawn.... |^|
Thanks Jon.
I think she's finally done. More than half of the slate has eggs. w!w w!w w!w ;D
Crossing my fingers
This is what the slate looks like this morning. A few white eggs. They are in a gallon jar. You can see the top and bottom parts of the jar. I'm just amazed how much eggs came out of her. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Quote from: Babers on March 29, 2018, 05:46:50 AM
This is what the slate looks like this morning. A few white eggs. They are in a gallon jar. You can see the top and bottom parts of the jar. I'm just amazed how much eggs came out of her. Keeping my fingers crossed.
.... |^|
Eggs are not looking so good tonight. Half of them already turned white 😟
Quote from: Babers on March 29, 2018, 09:08:52 PM
Eggs are not looking so good tonight. Half of them already turned white 😟
..did you use peroxide?
I used methylene blue
Got home tonight and eggs on slate all turned white 😟 . I was disappointed. So I was removing the slate and noticed a few eggs fell on the bottom of the jar. They didn't turn white. Upon closer inspection, there were tails and their moving!!! :D I've got fry. Not too many, but there's some. 🍾🍾🍾
Quote from: Babers on March 30, 2018, 08:47:44 PM
Got home tonight and eggs on slate all turned white 😟 . I was disappointed. So I was removing the slate and noticed a few eggs fell on the bottom of the jar. They didn't turn white. Upon closer inspection, there were tails and their moving!!! :D I've got fry. Not too many, but there's some. 🍾🍾🍾
....cool beans.... |^|
Quote from: Babers on March 30, 2018, 10:16:55 AM
I used methylene blue
Jungle Fungus Clear tabs work too. Use at 1/2 tab per gallon. Not so critical that it be removed when they hatch. Get it at Walmart or local fish store.
Quote from: waterboy on March 31, 2018, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: Babers on March 30, 2018, 10:16:55 AM
I used methylene blue
Jungle Fungus Clear tabs work too. Use at 1/2 tab per gallon. Not so critical that it be removed when they hatch. Get it at Walmart or local fish store.
.interesting Dale.....never heard of that.....thanks....
The box recommends a dose of 1 tab per 10 gallons. Through experimentation I found that half a tab per gallon keeps the fungus off the eggs and it does not seem to affect the wigglers if you leave it in there.
Quote from: waterboy on March 31, 2018, 10:27:01 AM
The box recommends a dose of 1 tab per 10 gallons. Through experimentation I found that half a tab per gallon keeps the fungus off the eggs and it does not seem to affect the wigglers if you leave it in there.
..... |^|...
This will be good to know if I ever decide to join the dark side and raise babies without their parents.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on March 31, 2018, 04:08:58 PM
This will be good to know if I ever decide to join the dark side and raise babies without their parents.
Hey, come on over to the dark side. It is as much fun (if not more) as watching them raise their own. I have only had two pairs that ever raised their own. If I waited for mine to parent raise, I wouldn't have any around to watch or to sell at swaps.
I have never had a pair parent raise,although I didn't give them a bunch of times to try to get it right either.
But every time they ate the eggs,except for a couple times when they ate the fry AS they hatched.
If i WANT the batch i'm pulling it, no screwing around.
Many of my spawns were albinos or albino mixed,so i had to pull them,even if they would parent raise the albino fry wouldn't have been able to feed properly in that large of a tank.
I've got 2 pairs that spawned last night. I left the eggs with them and they're still fanning this morning. We'll see how they do.
Quote from: Babers on April 01, 2018, 11:27:11 AM
I've got 2 pairs that spawned last night. I left the eggs with them and they're still fanning this morning. We'll see how they do.
.....cool beans..... |^|
Not successful. One of the pairs ate the eggs sometime the next day, the other one ate them on day 2. I don't think they will parent-raise, Multiple tries for one of them. Back to pulling eggs😃
Spawn #2 of the Male BSP (D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg) x Female Pinoy (D/+ or D/g - pb/pb - +/bg) Not sure on the female if has gold or not.Small hatch rate. We'll see what happens this time.
My first batch didn't make it to freeswimming. The big question is will they make it this time? huh
Fingers crossed
Quote from: Babers on April 17, 2018, 08:16:33 PM
Spawn #2 of the Male BSP (D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg) x Female Pinoy (D/+ or D/g - pb/pb - +/bg) Not sure on the female if has gold or not.Small hatch rate. We'll see what happens this time.
My first batch didn't make it to freeswimming. The big question is will they make it this time? huh
Fingers crossed
...good luck |^|
Hey Joel,did you get my PM?
Freeswimming yesterday....first feeding... I can see 2 different shades of fry. Dark and Lighter ones. 50% of these guys will be BSP, and 50% will carry the bg.
Congratulations! They look bigger than 1 day free swimming. Guess you have a good healthy pair. Is this from the (D/g-pb/pb/-bg/bg) BSP and the (D/+-pb/pb-bg/+) Black Lace Pinoy? I would really be interested in the fry counts when they get bigger.
Thanks Dale. Yes, this is from the female black lace Pinoy with bg and male bsp. I'll keep record on the phenotypes I get.
The Pair spawned 4/14. Fry went freeswimming 4/20. A day ahead before I was expecting them to go freeswimming. Most of them are Eating good so far.
We'll see...
Congrat's .....I'm interested in the counts, and how you identify them.....
It's gonna be exciting and at the same time I know it will be challenging...
Quote from: Babers on April 22, 2018, 06:36:03 PM
It's gonna be exciting and at the same time I know it will be challenging...
...yup.....lotsa fun too ;)
6 days freeswimming....eating like pigs.
..lotsa little orange bellies there.... |^|
..geesh they're cute...!
Thanks Ron.
The pair spawned again, this time the hatch rate is a lot better. He's gotten better fertilizing the eggs. Just needed a couple times to practice.
Here are the first batch of fry. The dark ones have different shades. Lighter ones are the same way. Too early to tell which ones have the double dose or not...it's gonna be a challenge.
And here are the next batch of fry...
https://youtu.be/5zrCOAmpiKI
Must be something in the water....
Only 8 days since they last spawn (above fry video), came home and they spawned again! Good size spawn too.
...good pair |^|.....great water conditions...... |^|
So far, these are what I see in the mix...
# 1
#2
#3
#4
These are pb/pb too, right....
#5
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on May 11, 2018, 12:28:07 PM
These are pb/pb too, right....
Yes
..if you had to do phenotype counts?....what would you count for.... huh....I ask because you're the first person to show result that I know of.....thank you
Don't know if the size spawn I have is a good enough representation, but it's close to 80 babies...maybe a little more. This is just attempting to count each phenotype without netting the fish. So not accurate but close enough.
22- looks like blacklace (single dose dark)
12 - double dark
10 - platinums
13 - silver type with dark fins
25 - greenish body color with dark fins huh
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 01:50:26 PM
Don't know if the size spawn I have is a good enough representation, but it's close to 80 babies...maybe a little more. This is just attempting to count each phenotype without netting the fish. So not accurate but close enough.
22- looks like blacklace (single dose dark)
12 - double dark
10 - platinums
13 - silver type with dark fins
25 - greenish body color with dark fins huh
...interesting...thanks...........might the "greenish body color with dark fins '...be the seal points? huh...guess we'll see...
i don't know which one is going to be the BSP. Dont know if the body color will change later on or if they will stay the same. Don't know if the stripes of the silver-looking ones will fade ( the male BSP parent has stripes but greenish and barely noticeable. It gets darker sometimes).
Maybe Raiko can help with this...I posted them in another forum...hopefully he'll chime in.
...or are the platinums going to be what he mentioned on this thread "The New Platimun"
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showpost.php?p=279000&postcount=248
Good job Joel. Pretty much the same as I am seeing in mine. Some of your dark ones might be D/g Pinoys. You have a bigger batch than I do though, I have about 20 that size and another batch smaller. I have no sign of BSP in mine, I am really hoping they "turn" like a half black.
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 02:46:30 PM
...or are the platinums going to be what he mentioned on this thread "The New Platimun"
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showpost.php?p=279000&postcount=248
....he'll need another name for sure....Plat being g/g pb/pb......who knows what that may carry...plus it's more off white/dull compared to Plats....
Quote from: waterboy on May 11, 2018, 02:50:43 PM
Good job Joel. Pretty much the same as I am seeing in mine. Some of your dark ones might be D/g Pinoys. You have a bigger batch than I do though, I have about 20 that size and another batch smaller. I have no sign of BSP in mine, I am really hoping they "turn" like a half black.
....any pics Dale ?
No, I have a hard time getting decent pix with the crappy camera I have, but mine look pretty much the same as Joel's.
Here is what the calculator says they should be.
# Genotypes Phenotypes %
1 g/+,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/+,+/+,pb/pb Blue silver 12.5%
2 g/+,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/bg,+/+,pb/pb Blue silver Bulgarian 12.5%
3 D/+,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/+,+/+,pb/pb Black lace Pinoy 12.5%
4 D/+,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/bg,+/+,pb/pb Bulgarian Seal Point 12.5%
5 D/g,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/+,+/+,pb/pb Black hybrid Pinoy 12.5%
6 D/g,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/bg,+/+,pb/pb Bulgarian Seal Point 12.5%
7 D/D,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/+,+/+,pb/pb Double black pinoy 12.5%
8 D/D,+/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, +/+,bg/bg,+/+,pb/pb Bulgarian Seal Point 12.5%
Although how one tells the difference between the single and double dose bg has yet to be determined. So far none look like Seal Points, but I am hoping they turn as they get older like half blacks do. Some of mine certainly look like Platinums so I guess my female probably has a gold gene. Will have to run the calculator again.
Dale...Which calculator did you use that has a Bulgarian gene incorporated to it.
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 03:11:30 PM
Dale...Which calculator did you use that has a Bulgarian gene incorporated to it.
..likely 'Angelfins'... huh
Quote from: Mugwump on May 11, 2018, 03:22:07 PM
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 03:11:30 PM
Dale...Which calculator did you use that has a Bulgarian gene incorporated to it.
..likely 'Angelfins'... huh
Angelfins doesnt have it. Paul's calculator doesn't have it also. Is there another calculator?
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 03:11:30 PM
Dale...Which calculator did you use that has a Bulgarian gene incorporated to it.
I used Angelfins but it doesn't have the Bulgarian green incorporated. I plugged in pearlscale because I don't have any and then changed any p/p or+/p output to bg/bg or +/bg. Should be reasonably accurate with what little is known about the bg gene. Almost any recessive gene should work reasonably well.
Anyone have b/g fish without p/b.
OR plans to breed the p/b out of SOME of their stock.
I was disapointed when Raiko shipped no straight b/g's,as far as i know.
It's cool that some fish have both,but i personally would have rather added p/b myself,once i tried to figure out what they were geneticly without it.
Seems like it would be MUCH harder now trying to decipher the alphabet soup.
Quote from: ghonk on May 11, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Anyone have b/g fish without p/b.
OR plans to breed the p/b out of SOME of their stock.
I was disapointed when Raiko shipped no straight b/g's,as far as i know.
It's cool that some fish have both,but i personally would have rather added p/b myself,once i tried to figure out what they were geneticly without it.
Seems like it would be MUCH harder now trying to decipher the alphabet soup.
..Greg, I not sure a plain bg has ever been produced.....they all carry pb tho.....which to me is something folks haven't considered...accepting only the 'new' bg is solely responsible for all the expressions................that being the root of my skepticism about bg.....
I'm hoping to produce those later on....the original ghost BSP. Raiko's original BSP's didn't have the pb. That was my plan awhile back when I imported some BSP blushing but no luck from them
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 05:00:43 PM
I'm hoping to produce those later on....the original ghost BSP. Raiko's original BSP's didn't have the pb. That was my plan awhile back when I imported some BSP blushing but no luck from them
..thanks for that info, Joel.....I never saw that.....and sadly none of those made it to the states ...it's a shame too....so much could have been done by now to explore bg
Quote from: Mugwump on May 11, 2018, 05:12:49 PM
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 05:00:43 PM
I'm hoping to produce those later on....the original ghost BSP. Raiko's original BSP's didn't have the pb. That was my plan awhile back when I imported some BSP blushing but no luck from them
..thanks for that info, Joel.....I never saw that.....and sadly none of those made it to the states ...it's a shame too....so much could have been done by now to explore bg
...then again, perhaps the bg? expressions never flowered until the pb was added.... huh
Quote from: ghonk on May 11, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Anyone have b/g fish without p/b.
OR plans to breed the p/b out of SOME of their stock.
I was disapointed when Raiko shipped no straight b/g's,as far as i know.
It's cool that some fish have both,but i personally would have rather added p/b myself,once i tried to figure out what they were geneticly without it.
Seems like it would be MUCH harder now trying to decipher the alphabet soup.
I have few from a BSP/Silver pearscale that are only het for pb but I am not sure how one would breed out the blue. Especially since I can't tell the difference between no pb and single dose pb. Seems to me that could turn into an extended project. I was more interested in trying for BSPs than isolating the bg gene. I am not sure if you could tell the difference between a +/+ fish and a bg/bg fish. Although I could probably be wrong, nothing unusual there.
Quote from: waterboy on May 11, 2018, 05:47:56 PM
Quote from: ghonk on May 11, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Anyone have b/g fish without p/b.
OR plans to breed the p/b out of SOME of their stock.
I was disapointed when Raiko shipped no straight b/g's,as far as i know.
It's cool that some fish have both,but i personally would have rather added p/b myself,once i tried to figure out what they were geneticly without it.
Seems like it would be MUCH harder now trying to decipher the alphabet soup.
I have few from a BSP/Silver pearscale that are only het for pb but I am not sure how one would breed out the blue. Especially since I can't tell the difference between no pb and single dose pb. Seems to me that could turn into an extended project. I was more interested in trying for BSPs than isolating the bg gene. I am not sure if you could tell the difference between a +/+ fish and a bg/bg fish. Although I could probably be wrong, nothing unusual there.
there's the question......if it was a bland expression and when pb added it began to express?...
..as for pb fry...look for the headlight..those are the pb/pb fry....the 'headlight' can last til ...nickel or bigger
..the pb 'hets' are more an educated guess after raising them for a while....
Epistasis...?
Raiko produced fish with ONLY b/g in almost every genotype as best as I can remember,when he was trying to prove the gene.
He may have even did it with all genotypes,but i'm not sure of that.
Got a reply from Raiko . Fish # 1 and #5 are BSP's.
Fish # 1 (+/g - pb/pb - bg/bg)
Fish # 5 (D/+(g) - pb/pb - bg/bg)
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 06:47:33 PM
Got a reply from Raiko . Fish # 1 and #5 are BSP's.
Fish # 1 (+/g - pb/pb - bg/bg)
Fish # 5 (D/+(g) - pb/pb - bg/bg)
...and the rest are 'hets'.....right?
Rest are het (+/bg)
Fish #2 Pinoy
Fish # 3 Pinoy
Fish # 4 Blue Silver
Quote from: Babers on May 11, 2018, 06:59:34 PM
Rest are het (+/bg)
Fish #2 Pinoy
Fish # 3 Pinoy
Fish # 4 Blue Silver
... |^|
Quote from: Mugwump on May 11, 2018, 05:55:39 PM
Quote from: waterboy on May 11, 2018, 05:47:56 PM
Quote from: ghonk on May 11, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Anyone have b/g fish without p/b.
OR plans to breed the p/b out of SOME of their stock.
I was disapointed when Raiko shipped no straight b/g's,as far as i know.
It's cool that some fish have both,but i personally would have rather added p/b myself,once i tried to figure out what they were geneticly without it.
Seems like it would be MUCH harder now trying to decipher the alphabet soup.
I have few from a BSP/Silver pearscale that are only het for pb but I am not sure how one would breed out the blue. Especially since I can't tell the difference between no pb and single dose pb. Seems to me that could turn into an extended project. I was more interested in trying for BSPs than isolating the bg gene. I am not sure if you could tell the difference between a +/+ fish and a bg/bg fish. Although I could probably be wrong, nothing unusual there.
there's the question......if it was a bland expression and when pb added it began to express?...
..as for pb fry...look for the headlight..those are the pb/pb fry....the 'headlight' can last til ...nickel or bigger
..the pb 'hets' are more an educated guess after raising them for a while....
I haven't seen any headlite on mine, maybe Joel has. I was under the impression that the combination of bg and pb altered the Dark gene to eliminate the black body color and make a BSP. Much the same way the pb gene alters a g/g fish to be white. But we will learn more as time goes on.
[/quote]
I haven't seen any headlite on mine, maybe Joel has. I was under the impression that the combination of bg and pb altered the Dark gene to eliminate the black body color and make a BSP. Much the same way the pb gene alters a g/g fish to be white. But we will learn more as time goes on.
[/quote]
Raiko's BSP didn't have p/b.
No p/b is needed to alter the color in most if not all genotypes,IF I remember correctly.
Raiko did extensive testing using only the b/g gene,BEFORE adding p/b into the mix.
Otherwise he would never be able to figure out how b/g affected expression.
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 04:57:45 AM
I haven't seen any headlite on mine, maybe Joel has. I was under the impression that the combination of bg and pb altered the Dark gene to eliminate the black body color and make a BSP. Much the same way the pb gene alters a g/g fish to be white. But we will learn more as time goes on.
[/quote]
Raiko's BSP didn't have p/b.
No p/b is needed to alter the color in most if not all genotypes,IF I remember correctly.
Raiko did extensive testing using only the b/g gene,BEFORE adding p/b into the mix.
Otherwise he would never be able to figure out how b/g affected expression.
[/quote]
....'extensive'.....?....an assumption........I don't recall seeing any fry counts..."how b/g affected expression."...or is it the other way around?...his expressing stock most all have p/b now...
b/g does seem to do something tho...I'm really interested in what Dale and Joel find......Dena spent quite a bit of time on it before throwing in the towel.... huh
[/quote]
....'extensive'.....?....an assumption........I don't recall seeing any fry counts..."how b/g affected expression."...or is it the other way around?...his expressing stock most all have p/b now...
b/g does seem to do something tho...I'm really interested in what Dale and Joel find......Dena spent quite a bit of time on it before throwing in the towel.... huh
[/quote]
Yes extensive,he added the b/g gene to many genotypes.
Some of it is buried in this thread.
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=24342
I don't see how fry counts are needed to see the effect it has on different genotypes.
If he was trying to prove the b/g gene the would be a different story, according to the ANGELFISH SOCIETY'S standards.
Hey are they still around. ;D
I'm sure all of Raiko's b/g fish aren't polluted with p/b by now.
He wouldn't be that stupid.
Some of them , I've got the headlight, some faint (like a (+/pb) and some didn't. That's why I was initially wondering if the Pinoy is really a Pinoy (D/g pb/pb)...or if it's only a Black lace (D/g +/pb). Although she looks like a Pinoy. So I definitely thinks it does something to the pb expression...
Here's a couple pictures of a very visible "headlight" and a "faint" one.
Faint
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 05:59:55 AM
....'extensive'.....?....an assumption........I don't recall seeing any fry counts..."how b/g affected expression."...or is it the other way around?...his expressing stock most all have p/b now...
b/g does seem to do something tho...I'm really interested in what Dale and Joel find......Dena spent quite a bit of time on it before throwing in the towel.... huh
[/quote]
Yes extensive,he added the b/g gene to many genotypes.
Some of it is buried in this thread.
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=24342
I don't see how fry counts are needed to see the effect it has on different genotypes.
If he was trying to prove the b/g gene the would be a different story, according to the ANGELFISH SOCIETY'S standards.
Hey are they still around. ;D
I'm sure all of Raiko's b/g fish aren't polluted with p/b by now.
He wouldn't be that stupid.[/quote]
....likely not all.....but everything coming to the states seems be be goulash.....
....fry counts tell the story of the crosses and results.......as of now, there seems to be a collage of genes in the stock.....that would indicate crossing just to cross....without any planned direction.......?....a road map would help bunches.... :)
...yes, 'they' are still around......
Can't attach the one regular headlight for the pb/pb...and it's from the blue silvers.
The "platinum looking" ones also has the headlight and very evident
[/quote]
....likely not all.....but everything coming to the states seems be be goulash.....
....fry counts tell the story of the crosses and results.......as of now, there seems to be a collage of genes in the stock.....that would indicate crossing just to cross....without any planned direction.......?....a road map would help bunches.... :)
...yes, 'they' are still around......
[/quote]
At one time I saw Raiko state that he only exported fish to the (US) 2 times,now he may have did it since then,but as far as I know he hasn't been flooding the market with MUTT stock. :)
I think at times b/g is getting confused with BSP.
Think of b/g like you would with the p/b gene,you can add it to any genotype and it will express in double dose.
BSP is a double dose b/g fish that is (best I can remember) also D/g.
It would be similar to adding p/b-p/b to a D/g fish,which would be a (D/g Pinoy )
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 06:41:17 AM
....likely not all.....but everything coming to the states seems be be goulash.....
....fry counts tell the story of the crosses and results.......as of now, there seems to be a collage of genes in the stock.....that would indicate crossing just to cross....without any planned direction.......?....a road map would help bunches.... :)
...yes, 'they' are still around......
[/quote]
At one time I saw Raiko state that he only exported fish to the (US) 2 times,now he may have did it since then,but as far as I know he hasn't been flooding the market with MUTT stock. :)
I think at times b/g is getting confused with BSP.
Think of b/g like you would with the p/b gene,you can add it to any genotype and it will express in double dose.
BSP is a double dose b/g fish that is (best I can remember) also D/g.
It would be similar to adding p/b-p/b to a D/g fish,which would be a (D/g Pinoy )
[/quote]
I don't recall saying anything about "mutt' stock...but one man's 'Mona Lisa' is another man's 'fridge' pic..........and no confusion here, I know how recessive genes work........
When you do crosses it's as important as what you didn't get, as what you did get........was 'bg' isolated?......really?
[/quote]
I don't recall saying anything about "mutt' stock...but one man's 'Mona Lisa' is another man's 'fridge' pic..........and no confusion here, I know how recessive genes work........
When you do crosses it's as important as what you didn't get, as what you did get........was 'bg' isolated?......really?
[/quote]
I said at times I think b/g is getting confused with BSP,i didn't say YOU were.
OTHER then the fish having P/B what would make them goulash?
Unless you are calling them goulash because of the p/b that they also have.
They can be ANY genotype with a double dose of b/g and still be Bulgarian Green fish.
(for those who don't know)
Like I said I wish he would have imported some NON p/b fish too,would have made it much easier to work with.
What do you consider isolated?
Pretty sure he had +/+-b/g/b/g fish,can't think how it would be more isolated then that.
Though I saw a pictuce of his fish labeled +/+-bg/bg.
But couldn't find it in the linked thread,if I find it I well post.
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 07:36:56 AM
I don't recall saying anything about "mutt' stock...but one man's 'Mona Lisa' is another man's 'fridge' pic..........and no confusion here, I know how recessive genes work........
When you do crosses it's as important as what you didn't get, as what you did get........was 'bg' isolated?......really?
[/quote]
I said at times I think b/g is getting confused with BSP,i didn't say YOU were.
OTHER then the fish having P/B what would make them goulash?
Unless you are calling them goulash because of the p/b that they also have.
They can be ANY genotype with a double dose of b/g and still be Bulgarian Green fish.
(for those who don't know)
Like I said I wish he would have imported some NON p/b fish too,would have made it much easier to work with.
What do you consider isolated?
Pretty sure he had +/+-b/g/b/g fish,can't think how it would be more isolated then that.
[/quote]
""
Pretty sure he had +/+-b/g/b/g fish,can't think how it would be more isolated then that. ""
...did he ?...
'goulash' being the fact that isolating is a lengthy process, at best......because the stock imported here were very mixed genetically .....by allowing his stock to be brought here early on might have avoided this issue......there were a few folks willing to 'pony up' and do the importing...but no cigar.....he just kept playing his cards close to his chest.....$$$'s.. huh
...too much woulda coulda shoulda going on.....and it makes it ripe for assumption about things....again, I have no problem with bg.....it's how it all came down....if he did isolate it, how come no one else has been able to yet?....
I hope the a vs (a2) work is handled better..........a/a is ok...but will (a2)/(a2) ever be isolated to identify it? time will tell if a modifier or a new gene is out there.....
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 07:58:46 AM
Though I saw a pictuce of his fish labeled +/+-bg/bg.
But couldn't find it in the linked thread,if I find it I well post.
...please do......and thanks
[/quote]
I have no problem with bg.....it's how it all came down....if he did isolate it, how come no one else has been able to yet?....
[/quote]
Isolating the b/g gene would be EASY,assuming p/b isn't thrown into the mix.
As long as you know the genetics of the fish you are starting with.
Judging by Raiko's work I think he would know the genetics of the fish you would be starting with.
No different then starting with a Pinoy Paraiba,and breeding the Dark and Stripless gene out of it,using a +/+ for the crosses you will eventually get blue silvers.
Not sure either if anyone has actually TRIED to isolate it in Raiko's stock.
Again assuming you consider isolated as a fish that is +/+-bg/bg.
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 09:15:26 AM
I have no problem with bg.....it's how it all came down....if he did isolate it, how come no one else has been able to yet?....
[/quote]
Isolating the b/g gene would be EASY,assuming p/b isn't thrown into the mix.
As long as you know the genetics of the fish you are starting with.
Judging by Raiko's work I think he would know the genetics of the fish you would be starting with.
No different then starting with a Pinoy Paraiba,and breeding the Dark and Stripless gene out of it,using a +/+ for the crosses you will eventually get blue silvers.
Not sure either if anyone has actually TRIED to isolate it in Raiko's stock.
Again assuming you consider isolated as a fish that is +/+-bg/bg.
[/quote]
....assuming...not sure...again assuming...no different than.......ya see? no one really knows..... huh
""Isolating the b/g gene would be EASY,
assuming p/b isn't thrown into the mix.""....but in most cases it is involved.....
Face it....for other breeders it's not an easy task working with bg.....it's learning on the fly, so to speak.....Joel and Dale, weren't sure exactly what they got with spawns.....a good speculative guess is all......
At this time, using the parents genes that was posted initially...Male (D/g pb/pb bg/bg) and Female (D/+ pb/pb +/bg)....and looking at the phenotypes of spawns that I have....I don't see anything that was not expected. I didn't see any odd-looking fish so far.
Since I really have not seen any postings also on the fry phenotype, this is why I asked Raiko's input on what kind of fry I have. I'm sure those color/phenotype varieties I have is nothing new to him.
So...based on the fish I have, I'm not seeing anything unexpected after Raiko identified each fish in the pictures for me. Nothing to disprove that the parents I have has more than what was mentioned...and Nothing to prove "the goulash" genetics...
But like I said, Spawn is smaller...maybe the next spawn after these guys will Tell us a better story.
Quote from: Babers on May 12, 2018, 04:20:32 PM
At this time, using the parents genes that was posted initially...Male (D/g pb/pb bg/bg) and Female (D/+ pb/pb +/bg)....and looking at the phenotypes of spawns that I have....I don't see anything that was not expected. I didn't see any odd-looking fish so far.
Since I really have not seen any postings also on the fry phenotype, this is why I asked Raiko's input on what kind of fry I have. I'm sure those color/phenotype varieties I have is nothing new to him.
So...based on the fish I have, I'm not seeing anything unexpected after Raiko identified each fish in the pictures for me. Nothing to disprove that the parents I have has more than what was mentioned...and Nothing to prove "the goulash" genetics...
But like I said, Spawn is smaller...maybe the next spawn after these guys will Tell us a better story.
...My comments aren't a diss at any breeder.....so if taken that way, I apologize.......but if the bg info from the beginning, a long time ago, had been better...you might not have needed to ask for much assistance in identifying fry...........look at the Philippine blues....sure there was a tussle by a few about it's recognition.....but then Ken laid all his cards on the table, and even provided angels for folks to play with......folks bred and shared results, pics, etal......it became a great learning experience for all.....maybe they do things differently in Europe....who knows.....but any of the bg fish that made it to the US were crossed already....D,g, pb, S....you name it.....this has made what night have been a fun fish to work with into a 'goulash' of genes making it a real project....a few breeders have tossed in the towel as far as working with them......and it didn't need to happen......hell the bg's sometimes even look pretty good....unfortunately you don't always know what the heck you've got.......so again....it's not the bg....it's not you handsome breeders......it's the screwed up process of assumptions and guessing that has just left a pretty f$$'n rotten taste in my mouth..... sorry 'bout that....
I agree with you Jon...there's a lot of assumptions/guessing about the BSP...that's why my comment was the facts that I saw, based on the batch that I have. I was merely stating facts.
I know you meant no diss and I didn't see it otherwise. We're just discussing it, and I respect your opinions too.
Oooooh, one more thing...you're right about the handsome part too...lol j/k :D
Quote from: Babers on May 12, 2018, 05:20:11 PM
I agree with you Jon...there's a lot of assumptions/guessing about the BSP...that's why my comment was the facts that I saw, based on the batch that I have. I was merely stating facts.
I know you meant no diss and I didn't see it otherwise. We're just discussing it, and I respect your opinions too.
..thanks Joel.....I just felt that I should let everyone know my position in case I'd hurt some feelings...I'm not like that.....
Are you dropping down for the GCCA swap on the 20th?......
Quote from: Mugwump on May 12, 2018, 05:04:07 PM
Quote from: Babers on May 12, 2018, 04:20:32 PM
At this time, using the parents genes that was posted initially...Male (D/g pb/pb bg/bg) and Female (D/+ pb/pb +/bg)....and looking at the phenotypes of spawns that I have....I don't see anything that was not expected. I didn't see any odd-looking fish so far.
Since I really have not seen any postings also on the fry phenotype, this is why I asked Raiko's input on what kind of fry I have. I'm sure those color/phenotype varieties I have is nothing new to him.
So...based on the fish I have, I'm not seeing anything unexpected after Raiko identified each fish in the pictures for me. Nothing to disprove that the parents I have has more than what was mentioned...and Nothing to prove "the goulash" genetics...
But like I said, Spawn is smaller...maybe the next spawn after these guys will Tell us a better story.
...My comments aren't a diss at any breeder.....so if taken that way, I apologize.......but if the bg info from the beginning, a long time ago, had been better...you might not have needed to ask for much assistance in identifying fry...........look at the Philippine blues....sure there was a tussle by a few about it's recognition.....but then Ken laid all his cards on the table, and even provided angels for folks to play with......folks bred and shared results, pics, etal......it became a great learning experience for all.....maybe they do things differently in Europe....who knows.....but any of the bg fish that made it to the US were crossed already....D,g, pb, S....you name it.....this has made what night have been a fun fish to work with into a 'goulash' of genes making it a real project....a few breeders have tossed in the towel as far as working with them......and it didn't need to happen......hell the bg's sometimes even look pretty good....unfortunately you don't always know what the heck you've got.......so again....it's not the bg....it's not you handsome breeders......it's the screwed up process of assumptions and guessing that has just left a pretty f$$'n rotten taste in my mouth..... sorry 'bout that....
I don't think Raiko was trying to hide anything,the thread i posted a link to explained the work he was doing in pretty good detail.
It listed the genetics of the fish he was using,it listed the results of those crosses.
He included pictures of parents and offspring for the crosses he made,some for multiple generation.
OTHER then Raiko selling SOME fish the had p/b in them i don't see any difference in the way he did it VS Ken.
Ken discovered the p/b gene in platinums,and then did crosses to add the gene to different genotypes,to see what the results were.
Raiko did EXACTLY the same thing with the b/g gene.
When Ken exported fish he didn't just export platinums,he exported different geneotypes that INCLUDED the p/b gene.
When Joel originally imported fish from Raiko he knew exactly what the genentics of the fish were,no mystery.
(Raiko in a TAF thread about the fish Joel imported.)
The fish at Joel are: (D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg) and maybe a small percentage: (D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg).
(Post # 11 here)
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=34111
Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.
MORE details about Raiko's EARLY work from another TAF thread.
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=24342
Also,as best as i can remember i don't think the earlier imports from Raiko (Angelfish USA) included the p/b gene.
So they would have been easier to work with,IF your objective is to have fish that only carry b/g,and don't include the p/b gene.
Quote from: ghonk on May 12, 2018, 09:59:17 PM
Also,as best as i can remember i don't think the earlier imports from Raiko (Angelfish USA) included the p/b gene.
So they would have been easier to work with,IF your objective is to have fish that only carry b/g,and don't include the p/b gene.
If they're so easy to work with........why aren't they in more breeder's/hobbyist's tanks like the Philippine blues, and others, are..... huh
I don't recall David bringing them in...?......I think that was the Dantums..?......if he did, why doesn't he still carry them ?....
Here's a link where bg/bg was mentioned. They had 50% Manacapuru blood in them. David's shipment (box #1).
https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/10/03/bulgarian-green-angelfish-genetics-arrive-in-the-us/
Quote from: Babers on May 13, 2018, 05:58:35 AM
Here's a link where bg/bg was mentioned. They had 50% Manacapuru blood in them. David's shipment (box #1).
https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/10/03/bulgarian-green-angelfish-genetics-arrive-in-the-us/
I stand corrected..thanks Joel......he doesn't appear to still carry them tho....?
Quote
Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.
He didn't have any small ones available at that time. I was able to get blushing adults (D/g S/S bg/bg) but was unsuccessful.
Quote from: Babers on May 13, 2018, 06:11:12 AM
Quote
Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.
He didn't have any small ones available at that time. I was able to get blushing adults (D/g S/S bg/bg) but was unsuccessful.
...'unsuccessful' ....how so?...breeding?....
Thanks for the link Joel.
I thought Raiko exported NON p/b greens when David got them.
But didn't remember he ALSO sent pb/pb-bg/bg fish.
I guess it's because I was more interested in the straight greens at that time.
Like I am now,and might have bred p/b into them later.
Now i'm not discounting fish that have both b/g AND p/b in double dose.
They might be a more attractive fish in many if not all genotypes ,VS greens.
Quote from: Mugwump on May 13, 2018, 06:20:50 AM
Quote from: Babers on May 13, 2018, 06:11:12 AM
Quote
Joel,did you ask Raiko about buying some NON p/b fish when you got your's,and if you did what was his reply.
He didn't have any small ones available at that time. I was able to get blushing adults (D/g S/S bg/bg) but was unsuccessful.
...'unsuccessful' ....how so?...breeding?....
None of the adult fish I got bred...Adult BSP, Blacklace Manacapuru, and Nanacapuru. I blame myself for this bec I wasn't doing my due diligence to make them spawn and provide good spawning condition.
This time, I'm back to watching everything...checking water parameters, daily ph check, daily tds check, daily temp check, equipments, daily water changes, etc.
[/quote]
None of the adult fish I got bred...Adult BSP, Blacklace Manacapuru, and Nanacapuru. I blame myself for this bec I wasn't doing my due diligence to make them spawn and provide good spawning condition.
[/quote]
OH NO,don't say that.
You are freaking me out a little bit/lot.
I have been trying to track down people that still have nanacapuru stock,hoping to buy some juvies when available.
I have found 2 people that MAY have offspring in the future.
But now i'm having second thoughts on getting them.
I don't understand how fish that are SEVERAL generations removed from the original wild stock would be more that much more difficult to breed then regular domestics.
Same crap with my dantums,other then my original female I had NO luck getting 2 batches of grow outs to pair.
At least 2 people I sold dantums to had the same results,and ended up giving up on them.
Most of my interest is in tank raised wilds and wild crosses.
But I sure don't need to invest the time and money into them and it all be a waste,as far as getting spawns from them.
Everyone has a different perspective. Please excuse the long post, but here goes.
Raiko Slavkov worked with several generations of a koi x black ghost crosses. He had two sibling pairs of Black Ghosts that each produced some Seal Points. Once he had the BSPs he did several crosses to different phenotypes and posted pictures of the resulting fry. But he never did fry counts nor did he explain how the pictured ones related to the whole spawn. Didn't say if they were 3% or 90% of the spawn.
In 2014 Dave Label imported some of Raiko's fish. I think there were about 300 but not sure of the count. I didn't buy any because the price was too steep for me.
Some people had problems with the BSPs from Dave here. http://www.aquaboards.com/showthread.php?83964-Buyer-Beware-Bulgarian-Sealpoint-Angelfish
Apparently some were also imported to Canada in 2014 http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=753121
A lady in Oregon, Dena I think, obtained some Bulgarian Green fish. Worked with them for a while and lost some. I think she then gave up, but not sure.
http://www.everythingaquatic.net/forum/forum/freshwater-fish-discussions/fish-care/cichlid-care/angelfish-pterophyllum/165025-bulgarian-green-breeding-log
Some were imported into the UK https://www.facebook.com/337208559760711/videos/426437527504480
(Big Ben on the TAFII forum) in the UK worked with some of these fish here http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations
About 2017 there was a guy selling 'Hets' on Aquabid, but I don't remember the name.
In 2016 Joel imported about 100 Bulgarian Seal Points. He sold some of them, I bought 12, and I assume he saved a few.
A guy bought some of Joels fish and had a delivery problem but never stated whatever became of the fish. http://www.dfwfishbox.com/forums/production/vb4/showthread.php?40483-The-story-of-my-Bulgarian-Seal-Point-Angels-and-their-new-250G-home
Of the 300 imported by AngelfishUSA in 2014, and the 100 or so imported by Joel in 2016, there have been no reports of anyone producing Bulgarian Seal Point fish. That is 400 fish over 4 years with only one report of offspring. Seems the only reports about these fish have been reports of weak fish that died off easy. Of the 12 I bought from Joel, I lost all but three, which turned out to be all Males.
I Had a BSP spawn with a Blue Silver. I sold two of the resulting D/g-pb/pb-+bg hets to Joel. One turned out to be Female and he paired it with one of the original BSPs. I Paired one of my D/+-pb/pb-+/bg pinoys with one of the remaining uncle BSPs. We both have youngsters growing out, but it is too early to tell much about them yet. As far as I know Joel and I are the only people in the US with breeding Seal Points.
Quote from: waterboy on May 13, 2018, 09:15:25 AM
Everyone has a different perspective. Please excuse the long post, but here goes.
Raiko Slavkov worked with several generations of a koi x black ghost crosses. He had two sibling pairs of Black Ghosts that each produced some Seal Points. Once he had the BSPs he did several crosses to different phenotypes and posted pictures of the resulting fry. But he never did fry counts nor did he explain how the pictured ones related to the whole spawn. Didn't say if they were 3% or 90% of the spawn.
In 2014 Dave Label imported some of Raiko's fish. I think there were about 300 but not sure of the count. I didn't buy any because the price was too steep for me.
Some people had problems with the BSPs from Dave here. http://www.aquaboards.com/showthread.php?83964-Buyer-Beware-Bulgarian-Sealpoint-Angelfish
Apparently some were also imported to Canada in 2014 http://www.gtaaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?p=753121
A lady in Oregon, Dena I think, obtained some Bulgarian Green fish. Worked with them for a while and lost some. I think she then gave up, but not sure.
http://www.everythingaquatic.net/forum/forum/freshwater-fish-discussions/fish-care/cichlid-care/angelfish-pterophyllum/165025-bulgarian-green-breeding-log
Some were imported into the UK https://www.facebook.com/337208559760711/videos/426437527504480
(Big Ben on the TAFII forum) in the UK worked with some of these fish here http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations
About 2017 there was a guy selling 'Hets' on Aquabid, but I don't remember the name.
In 2016 Joel imported about 100 Bulgarian Seal Points. He sold some of them, I bought 12, and I assume he saved a few.
A guy bought some of Joels fish and had a delivery problem but never stated whatever became of the fish. http://www.dfwfishbox.com/forums/production/vb4/showthread.php?40483-The-story-of-my-Bulgarian-Seal-Point-Angels-and-their-new-250G-home
Of the 300 imported by AngelfishUSA in 2014, and the 100 or so imported by Joel in 2016, there have been no reports of anyone producing Bulgarian Seal Point fish. That is 400 fish over 4 years with only one report of offspring. Seems the only reports about these fish have been reports of weak fish that died off easy. Of the 12 I bought from Joel, I lost all but three, which turned out to be all Males.
I Had a BSP spawn with a Blue Silver. I sold two of the resulting D/g-pb/pb-+bg hets to Joel. One turned out to be Female and he paired it with one of the original BSPs. I Paired one of my D/+-pb/pb-+/bg pinoys with one of the remaining uncle BSPs. We both have youngsters growing out, but it is too early to tell much about them yet. As far as I know Joel and I are the only people in the US with breeding Seal Points.
..good post Dale.......thanks... |^|
does anyone have fry the BSP genes in them for sale?
I have a batch from a BSP and Blue Silver pair that I could sell. Parents are D/g-pb/pb-bg/bg male and +/g-pb/pb female.
They are about quarter size. There are Platinums (g/g-pb/pb-+/bg), Blue Silvers (+/g-pb/pb), Lace Pinoys (D/+-pb/pb-+/bg), and a few Hybrid Pinoys (D/g-pb/pb-+/bg). Send me a PM and we can work something out.
Quote from: greydragon on May 13, 2018, 09:57:50 AM
does anyone have fry the BSP genes in them for sale?
Dale's got fish ready to sell. Mine won't be ready for a couple more months, both BSP and angels with Bulgarian gene
The BSP are growing. nickel size now. Getting good colors.
Here's a Platinum BSP. Platinum body with darker fins.
Here's a BSP...green body with dark fins. You can see the difference between a double dark vs single dose
..looking good there, Joel...... |^|
A couple weeks ago, the pair had spawned that
I removed. Since I got busy, I didn't get the chance to put their slate back in the tank. The pair layed eggs and stuck them on the head of the heater and cord. So didn't have an option except to just let them be.
Well...they didn't have much but they did good and didn't eat them. 3rd day wigglers so far and moved them to the tank wall. I'm proud of them. 2nd pair of parent-raisers so far.
Quote from: Babers on June 19, 2018, 01:54:56 PM
A couple weeks ago, the pair had spawned that
I removed. Since I got busy, I didn't get the chance to put their slate back in the tank. The pair layed eggs and stuck them on the head of the heater and cord. So didn't have an option except to just let them be.
Well...they didn't have much but they did good and didn't eat them. 3rd day wigglers so far and moved them to the tank wall. I'm proud of them. 2nd pair of parent-raisers so far.
...very nice, Joel..... |^|......top of heater?..check.....I hate that....LOL
Great. Neat to have some that raise there own. I never seem to get any of those. No matter which pair it is, If I don't pull them, they eat them in about 48 hours.
..at about what age/size can you discern bg from non bg ???....is there a marker like the 'blue dot' on pb's...?
On mine the greenish ones with the dark fins are discernible before they get to dime size. The white ones with black fins have yet to show up and the first batch is quarter size or a little bigger now. I am sort of disappointed so far. I originally bought white fish with black fins and should be back there with the ones I have now, but I am not seeing it. Maybe I will get some in later batches or they will change as they age. I couldn't see any "headlight" on any of mine, even the Blue Silvers. Joel said he could see the headlight on some of his. I think a lot of it is still speculation at this point.
Quote from: Mugwump on June 22, 2018, 08:56:33 AM
..at about what age/size can you discern bg from non bg ???....is there a marker like the 'blue dot' on pb's...?
Pre-dimes you can definitely tell the BSPs. Peas, you can kinda tell but not 100% accurate (for me anyway). No markers that I've seen to tell if they are BSP or het at younger age (the headlight is for the pb ). Just the lighter greenish body on most of my BSP, platinum BSP are harder to recognize at a younger age. What I can tell you is ..all the black babies are het bg. So if you cull all the black babies, you know they are not BSP's.
How are they look'n, Joel?....any good pics?....
Don't have recent pictures but Here's some pictures I took a month ago.
http://slickpic.us/1752818Yh5u/?play
..nice !.....thanks... |^|
These are some of the BSP I have at breeding age...they are 10-11 months old. Most of them are Bulgarian Sealpoint both D/D and D/g (or D/+) and a couple Platinum Sealpoints. I just separated them from the grow out tank and put them in a separate tank and switched their water to a mix RO. Hoping they will soon pair up. Probably a week and we'll see.
Here's a link:
https://youtu.be/BbY5cNLtx88
Nice. Mine are the same age and haven't shown the slightest interest in pairing up or spawning.
...very nice, Joel.....good luck with them... |^|
Thanks Jon and Dale.
I moved these guys yesterday and can definitely see a change in behavior. I'm starting to see papilla sticking out. Hard to tell from these guys who's who because shapes almost the same, no noticeable hump. I can guess...but I'll let them figure it out.
Hopefully...
..they still courting?..... huh..or get a spawn yet?
Separated a pair so far. Rest are still trying to figure out who to pair with. No eggs yet though.
Quote from: Babers on March 16, 2019, 04:58:52 PM
Separated a pair so far. Rest are still trying to figure out who to pair with. No eggs yet though.
... |^|