I began to notice this about a month ago. Even in the morning, 10 hours after the last feeding they have big stomachs. It seems abnormal to me. These pictures were taken about 3 hours after some FDBW. They looked almost the same before feeding. I have been giving 5 or 6 lighter feedings per day.
They are active, beg for food, and are growing well. I got them 2 months ago at a little smaller than dollar size. Now they are at least 6.5" tall and 3.5-4" total length minus the streamers.
Poop has been normal and dark, but yesterday I noticed one that had a clear whitish tube hanging with two 1/4" long segments of dark poop in the "tube". I have seen this kind of poop before in other fish and don't associate it with disease... but I don't know. I wouldn't describe it as 'stringy' or 'slimy' like hex in discus, its a partially empty tube. A picture would be better than this lengthy poop description - lol.
..pictures to follow.. just saw that they need resizing.
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..sounds like a female has an extended tube....ready to spawn....do any, several/all, the males have a pointy tube displaying?...the other thing is egg bound...they'll get plump, show tube but can't deposit the eggs....?
Why are you feeding that much anyway..?....even 5-6 light feedings is too much for adults....
I'm not seeing any tubes in the pics.....and while plump, not to an extreme....try a once a day med. feeding....see if they poop some of that off....
...any fighting?...posturing?
I thought the more the merrier, but I guess I've been overfeeding, huh?
There is lots of play, some chasing and nipping, twitching face-offs, but I haven't seen what I would consider mating behavior or pairing. But then I might not necessarily recognize it as that. I will look for breeding tubes extended. So far have seen none.
Quote from: wallace on July 18, 2016, 06:27:17 PM
I thought the more the merrier, but I guess I've been overfeeding, huh?
There is lots of play, some chasing and nipping, twitching face-offs, but I haven't seen what I would consider mating behavior or pairing. But then I might not necessarily recognize it as that. I will look for breeding tubes extended. So far have seen none.
....pop a slate in there.....LOL.....
Yep, there has been a slate in there for weeks and it gets no action. :'(
Quote from: wallace on July 18, 2016, 06:35:48 PM
Yep, there has been a slate in there for weeks and it gets no action. :'(
..any broad leaf plants?....Anubis etc....
I didn't know that your Angels were so large when you first contacted me. I separated a group of my huge males just this afternoon for pics. They are all heavy chested like yours but not so full looking. I feed 3 times daily.
All your fish look male to me but I'm not the best at telling without seeing how the fish behave. If I were you, before I medicated I would try Epsom salts in the water 1 T per 10 gallons, and see what kind of poop they pass. Do a WC change the next day. If they pass normal poo then you might just have a group of fat bellied fish.
If Angels are like Discus, if they don't eat, or go for food then spit it out it's hex whether or not you see white poo. If the fish eat and get get skinny despite eating, it's worms. I hate being at a loss, but I'm at a loss.
Its a 40 breeder, with a large but cut back potted amazon sword near the slate, anubia in the middle held down by a rock, and a potted val on the other end.
There are 4 angels. I figured if a pair formed I would move the other two into a 75 that's been sitting out the yard, or maybe into the 90g with the rams. Running out of space here, this is supposed to be an office but its more fishroom than workplace lately.
Sounds to me that you need a fish room.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on July 18, 2016, 06:59:40 PM
Sounds to me that you need a fish room.
+1.....you need more tanks... |^|
Yeah, more tanks! I will get some wilds in a few months. Gonna need a third ageing barrel.
Liz, I raised these angels like discus. 60% water change every day, aged water, clean glass. I hope they aren't all males.
Quote from: wallace on July 18, 2016, 07:09:43 PM
Yeah, more tanks! I will get some wilds in a few months. Gonna need a third ageing barrel.
Liz, I raised these angels like discus. 60% water change every day, aged water, clean glass. I hope they aren't all males.
If they are, I'm sure that Liz can round up a sweetie for the boys.. |^|
I can shoot you off a few females if you need some.
That sounds like a plan. My gut tells me they are healthy, so for now I'm going to follow Jon's advice and cut way back on feeding for a few days and see if the poochy stomachs go down. If not then give Epsom salt a try.
My suspicion was worms, but they don't seem skinny.
Well after 2 or 3 days of very light feeding two of them still have pot bellies, but a little better... the other two about the same.
Caught a poop last night before it hit bottom and looked under the microscope. Nothing moving, no worm eggs. Now I can't remember which fish provided the turd...LOL
I will put some epsom salt laxative in after tonight's water change.
If you saw nothing under the scope you are probably fine although I have to admit that I've never been able to see spiro under the scope even when I knew the Discus had it.
I found a couple of videos of what you should see on a wet slide. Hex/spiro are very tiny, you need at least 400x to spot them. The first video is more realistic, the second one from Hans is loaded with flagellates and it looks to be sped up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydOo73e91Kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJIMGR2VaYY
Thanks. I was always looking for the flagella but could never see them. I don't think that I have ever seen the organism. I have seen nothing in my fish poo that moved so fast. My good scope has been at the vet's office for months and months and months. He can't get the people to come clean it. All mine needs is a cleaning. I had to store it in the barn after I moved home and the barn was full or rats and although I had the scope was covered it got so filthy that I could't see anything through it.
I called him just now. He has a scope that needs repair but is still usable. Mine is not usable. He apologized and promised to get with his microbiologist friend to find out the best people to call who will actually arrive and do the job. I will nag him again in a week or so.
I love talking to my vet. We are at opposite poles as far as politics and we always talk politics and will always be fast friends regardless. He is sure that Trump will win in November. I am sure that Hilary will win. He accepted my challenge to bet a dollar if the looser would sign the dollar bill and the winner could save it and pin it on her wall.
My scope is 45 years old and its a good one. Come to think of it, that thing might be the only thing I have had for that long, other than a book about dinosaurs...I have cleaned the lenses a few times myself but I wouldn't mess with a newer one.
I have friends who are tea party people and we get along fine. They just don't know anything about economics and are therefore easily misguided by all the horsepucky.
I've got a nice old Zeiss, but it's been setting long enough it probably needs a good clean too. LOL
(http://www.ballaquatics.com/images/microscope/320x631_zeiss.jpg)
Dennis
Mine has a lot of miles on it...but it still works.
I think it's due to the fact that they have never been out of the country. Unlike Europe, the US is insulated by ocean. We had 9-11 which woke us up to the fact that there were smart powerful rich people who don't like us. We had no clue, at least I had no clue. Then Bush attacked the wrong country because he was not a smart president. He went after Saddam because of the attempt on has dad's life. We had it good when we were buying oil from Iraq. Now we find ourselves at war with almost all the countries in the middle east. People here think that Muslims are all evil. I hate it it. What will become of poor Syria? We will not accept immigrants from Syria and they are the ones who are most suffering from this crazy war.
It all goes back to after WWII when the winning nations divided areas in the middle east into countries regardless of their sectarian divisions. We thought that we were doing a smart thing, I guess. It was before my time.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on July 22, 2016, 05:34:47 PM
I think it's due to the fact that they have never been out of the country. Unlike Europe, the US is insulated by ocean. We had 9-11 which woke us up to the fact that there were smart powerful rich people who don't like us. We had no clue, at least I had no clue. Then Bush attacked the wrong country because he was not a smart president. He went after Saddam because of the attempt on has dad's life. We had it good when we were buying oil from Iraq. Now we find ourselves at war with almost all the countries in the middle east. People here think that Muslims are all evil. I hate it it. What will become of poor Syria? We will not accept immigrants from Syria and they are the ones who are most suffering from this crazy war.
It all goes back to after WWII when the winning nations divided areas in the middle east into countries regardless of their sectarian divisions. We thought that we were doing a smart thing, I guess. It was before my time.
wtf? huh huh huh huh huh huh huh
=;-)
Dennis
Liz, plenty of people have tried to figure out what makes right-wingers tick. My favorite book on the subject is "Deerhunting with Jesus". You will like it.
Thank you sir. I shall buy it. Amazon is my best friend :-[
Quote from: LizStreithorst on July 22, 2016, 05:34:47 PM
I think it's due to the fact that they have never been out of the country. Unlike Europe, the US is insulated by ocean. We had 9-11 which woke us up to the fact that there were smart powerful rich people who don't like us. We had no clue, at least I had no clue. Then Bush attacked the wrong country because he was not a smart president. He went after Saddam because of the attempt on has dad's life. We had it good when we were buying oil from Iraq. Now we find ourselves at war with almost all the countries in the middle east. People here think that Muslims are all evil. I hate it it. What will become of poor Syria? We will not accept immigrants from Syria and they are the ones who are most suffering from this crazy war.
It all goes back to after WWII when the winning nations divided areas in the middle east into countries regardless of their sectarian divisions. We thought that we were doing a smart thing, I guess. It was before my time.
Biden wanted to break up Iraq along the existing sectarian lines to make separate countries that could at least get along with the other people in the same country. I kinda like that.
He's considered kind of extreme though.
I sounds like a good idea but I don't know if it would have worked. How can someone from outside re-draw boundaries of far away places? All I know that we have gotten ourselves into a huge mess. The Allies were the ones who decided to put the Jew's homeland in the middle east where they are despised rather than in Germany or another Western European country. "Not in my back yard", don't ya know...
Iraq was pretty much self partitioning after the US went in there.
Kurds in the NW, Shias in the Eastern parts, and the Sunnis in the middle.
The local militias took over where they were in the greatest numbers.
I think Biden just wanted to go with those divisions. Another advantage: less work to do.
T. E. Lawrence, who knew the area and spoke Arabic, was opposed to the carving up of the Middle East by the European powers. He thought the people who live there should rule the place. What a concept....LOL
They still have big bellies. One of them looks like it literally swallowed a marble. This isn't the same as the dropsy bloat, its confined to one sharp lump in the gut.
Their appetite and behavior are perfectly normal. If this was an intestinal blockage the worst fish would have been dead a long time ago. My best guess is tapeworms, but I haven't found where anybody describes swollen bellies from tapes.
I started Prazi on two of them last night. I wish I had sucked out the thin layer of sand so that I can see if worms are laying in there, but later I'll stir up the water and watch what comes up.
If I see signs of distress, it could be dead tapes blocking the gut and then will add epsom salt. If there is no change after this, a rest and then maybe a round of Levamisole. When something shows results, I will treat the other tanks. I should have done this months ago but they seem so healthy. huh
When I was running a fish facility, we had a room of sticklebacks that became infected with 5 kinds of worms at once (tapeworms, internal and external flukes (some requiring an intermediate host (usually snails) and some that did not use an intermediate host. (Someone who made the quarantining rules decided the they didn't need to use them for the wild caught fish they brought in later.) The fishes's bellies were lumpy and external flukes were almost microscopic, but they ate pretty well.
Since we were at a university and a big zebrafish research establishment, we had lots of fish vets to get advice from.
We ended up treating with either flubendazole or praziquantil (maybe I got the spelling right). This worked well and fast with few or no fatalities as I recall. The miscreant vectors of breaking quarantine were relegated to their own room for their fish so they wouldn't infect other people's fish in the future.
I'm not up on Angel health like I am on Discus health. I have never heard of tapes causing big bellies in Discus, put I'd be interested to know if you see tapes come out when you treat. It's a good first thing to try because side effects are almost unheard of.
Like Bill said, flubendazole is a good wormer. Double dose it and add an air stone if you decide to use it. I don't think your fish have roundworms. I don't think that they have tapes either. Fish with tapes don't have big bellies. Fish with roundworms get skinny,
Quote from: BillT on October 15, 2016, 01:16:05 PM
When I was running a fish facility, we had a room of sticklebacks that became infected with 5 kinds of worms at once (tapeworms, internal and external flukes (some requiring an intermediate host (usually snails) and some that did not use an intermediate host. (Someone who made the quarantining rules decided the they didn't need to use them for the wild caught fish they brought in later.) The fishes's bellies were lumpy and external flukes were almost microscopic, but they ate pretty well.
Since we were at a university and a big zebrafish research establishment, we had lots of fish vets to get advice from.
We ended up treating with either flubendazole or praziquantil (maybe I got the spelling right). This worked well and fast with few or no fatalities as I recall. The miscreant vectors of breaking quarantine were relegated to their own room for their fish so they wouldn't infect other people's fish in the future.
Last September I had an explosion of several different small worms in my tanks. I managed to identify some of them as harmless, the others I assumed were harmless since there were no problems. My only guess is they came in with some mosquito larvae that I was cultivating in a bucket outside on the porch. The mosquito water was tank water, but it occurred to me that mosquitoes and other flying insects might lay their own eggs and also carry the eggs of worms from other, wild water in my area, which is very close by.
The worms gradually dwindled away but I still had some when these angels were small. They were infesting and reproducing in the sponge filters. Did a fecal smear under the scope and saw nothing. I can only speculate and not knowing what this is, praziquantel seems like a good place to start.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on October 15, 2016, 03:11:53 PM
I'm not up on Angel health like I am on Discus health. I have never heard of tapes causing big bellies in Discus, put I'd be interested to know if you see tapes come out when you treat. It's a good first thing to try because side effects are almost unheard of.
Like Bill said, flubendazole is a good wormer. Double dose it and add an air stone if you decide to use it. I don't think your fish have roundworms. I don't think that they have tapes either. Fish with tapes don't have big bellies. Fish with roundworms get skinny,
If the prazi doesn't get results, I can try for nematodes. Levamisole I have used with Rams without any problems. The angels have a good appetite so I'm leaning toward using some fenbendazole medicated flakes that I got from Angelsplus earlier this year. It is said to be a good wormer.
The prazi has been in the tank 24 hours now and nothing has been expelled that I can see. huh
Three new pictures. Just finished 5 days of prazi with no change.
Did another poop exam, and saw just a lot of jiggling bacteria, nothing else like worms, worm eggs, or flagellates.