I saw this in my 11/24 spawn a couple of weeks ago and can no longer play pretend I didn't see it. Most of these kids have a very small divet in the forehead just before the start of the dorsal. I looked at my pairs and only 3 fish of 10 don't have it. Today I looked at the Koi I got from Mug and their blending from the forehead to the dorsal it perfectly smooth.
In breeding for show quality Discus this would be a fault bad enough to cull for. How bad a fault is it in Angels?
It' hard to capture in a pic. This is the best I could do. It's one of the kids. I'll try getting a pic of one of the adults that have it. It should be easier.
Here's the best pics I could get of it on the adults. It's hard to get on the camera.
The mouth/snout sometimes is very pronounced...this is due to the background lineage of the pairs used for breeding. Pterophyllum Scalare come from various locales along the Amazon waters and tributaries. Hence variance in facial presentation is expected...as is body shape...round vs high body
What you're seeing is the same as different noses on different people...but some are similar if from the same background area, etc. These body traits may go back as far as the initial crossing of there ancestors.
I can see where Discus may have a preferred shape, but culling for natures actions that are unavoidable sure shouldn't be one of them. With Angels, we embrace the difference, tho may still have a visual preference.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3428/3316993220_0fb1856bbb_o.jpg)
I know about the wild type mouth. What I'm seeing is a dent in the forehead just before the start of the dorsal. May be my pics aren't good enough.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on January 11, 2014, 02:29:22 PM
Here's the best pics I could get of it on the adults. It's hard to get on the camera.
You're not talking about the protein nuchal hump are you?? That normally is present on the males, tho some females get a smaller feature. That appears on fish (not just angels) that are eating an abundance of high protein foods. It's another visual thing, like it our not. It's more common in older fish too....a build up, if you will....
Nope. It's not that. I even see it in the kids. it's a tiny dent just before the dorsal starts. I thought I captured it well on one of the adult's pics. Apparently not.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on January 11, 2014, 03:04:38 PM
Nope. It's not that. I even see it in the kids. it's a tiny dent just before the dorsal starts. I thought I captured it well on one of the adult's pics. Apparently not.
elongated snout/forehead?? football shaped frontal body?.....if so...I'm not a fan either....
you're not referring to where the gill plats opening extends to the backish area are you??
Is this the indentation you are referring to Liz?
(http://www.mugwump-fish-world.com/images/DSC_1472.JPG)
Dennis
Yes, that! I can see it in the kids, too so it can't be just the cichlid hump.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on January 11, 2014, 03:27:14 PM
Yes, that! I can see it in the kids, too so it can't be just the cichlid hump.
In the adults, that's the back side of the 'hump'.....in fry.....they likely just haven't fuuly developed their bodies yet...it's hard to discern whether that will be evident at juvie/adult size...likely not...but the more easily acquired hump might be in the strain....ask George if his had it??.....if undesirable to you, cross to the lines that don't have it....select, etc...you can breed it out....
thanks, Dennis.. ;D
Some angels do have a rounder body, and facial feature.....like the taller body scalare, they don't get that at all...it's back to what the original lines were, and whom they were paired with....
i've had angels with it but ive always known it as a deformity known as a notch that always is passed down through generations...
Quote from: Owl307 on January 11, 2014, 07:55:48 PM
i've had angels with it but ive always known it as a deformity known as a notch that always is passed down through generations...
That's not a notch Mel.........these are notched
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/content.php/71-Dr-Norton-Article-Notched-An-Angelfish-Deformity
(http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/articles/norton/images/nor~a149.jpg)
(http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/articles/norton/images/nor~a152.jpg)
thats quite an extreme notch. i had a breeder in chicago show me the indention like that on platinums and he said it was notches, said its hard to breed out of the line.. everyone has different ideas and opinions i guess, i personally dont like it
It's been a long time since I had George's but if remember correctly they were smoothly blended. I'm glad to know that what I see is not a dreadful fault, but I don't like it either. I will do my best to breed it out. I prefer smooth. Thanks for the help gentlemen.
Quote from: Owl307 on January 11, 2014, 10:15:23 PM
thats quite an extreme notch. i had a breeder in chicago show me the indention like that on platinums and he said it was notches, said its hard to breed out of the line.. everyone has different ideas and opinions i guess, i personally dont like it
The breeder should have known that You can't breed out a deformity like a notch, it's still there until it rears it's ugly head in a future generation. He's slinging around the word notch pretty loosely. .....but if it was a Plat, that he referred to..likely it was Pearscale which have ventral, and body issues, when trying to grow..they can be football shaped, under developed....but they are not notched. Some other lines may experience similar looks. These are over bred, or caused by line breeding that has been over extended...weak gene pool.
...
After viewing Liz's Angel pic, it still looks like it's 'hump' related, it's a smooth feature, not a nick, or notch(you'll know a notch when you see one) ...the protein isn't being distributed in a uniform manner when forming the nuchal hump. In her case, out crossing to another HB line, or a Silver cross into her line, and bred back out. would get the shape she's looking for....there are few expressing HB lines out there....I think that most are very closely related...thus some may not be up to snuff
....
As for liking it...'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'....that's what selective breeding is all about...