How common?

[LizStreithorst]

Today was cull day.  I had 2 little bitty ones that needed to go, but I also had 5 with missing pelvic fins.  I've never had this before.  Is it a common deformity?

[Mugwump]

It is with 2 pearlscale genes present....

[LizStreithorst]

I'll be darned.  Thanks.

[Mugwump]

Lots of nubs and missing ventrals...however, I've had the same pair have perfect spawns.
If you breed z/s s/s p/p pairs, it'll likely happen more often, but less often with say a z/s s/s +/p pair(clown)...

[LizStreithorst]

Please translate from Greek to English.  z I guess is zebra.  p I guess is pearl. 

[PaulineMi]

Liz you might find this of interest:


http://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=genetics_calculator

[Mugwump]

z/s  p/p

Zebra/stripeless  pearl/pearl

z/s  +/p
Zebra/stripeless +/pearl

I don't know why I added the s/s....doh.....LOL Zebra and Stripeless share the same loci...you can either have two copies of one/ or the other.....but only one of each...each loci only holds two gene copies....

the calculator that Pauline posted a link to is fun to play with..

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks Pauline and Jon.  I looked at the calculator and it scared me.  It's not that I'm stupid, I learn somethings differently from most people.  I want to be able to talk genetics with the rest of you and I will with your help and patience.

Would one of you kind people give me the letters to these fish that I'm working with If I tell you all I know about their background, please?

1st cross standard HB female from George to a Zebra from Angels Plus.  Of 500 fry one was 1/3 black and one had a black tail
Second cross, those two.  I think that the 1/3 black male was the male.  Results were a couple hundred of which 1/4 of which expressed from black tail to half black.
3rd cross I bred sib to sib.  got about 1/3 of the spawn HB
4th cross was when I found a fish with the same background that did not express but was a pearl.  I bred it with a good HB and of a very small spawn I got 12 fish, 2 fish that are half tail only, 10  are HB.  Of those 10 3 are pearls.
The kids I have now are a result of a cross resulting from that cross.

I one of you could be so kind as to give me the letters for what I have now I'll take it to the calculator and try to make sense of it.

[Mugwump]

Original Genetic Cross ( one of these had to be a pearl carrier 'p')
Male:  h/h  - Halfblack (George)
Female:  h/h - Z/+ -p/+  - Halfblack Zebra (Angels Plus)

Results....(notice half are 'het' for pearl)
25.00%   h/h - Z/+ Halfblack Zebra
25.00%   h/h - Z/+ - p/+ Halfblack Zebra
25.00%   h/h Halfblack                             
25.00%   h/h - p/+ Halfblack

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sibling cross..(this shows that you'd selected (2) 'het' for pearl 'p')
Male:  h/h  - p/+ - Halfblack
Female:  h/h-p/+  - Halfblack

Results
12.50%   h/h - Z/+ Halfblack Zebra
25.00%   h/h - Z/+ - p/+ Halfblack Zebra
12.50%   h/h - Z/+ - p/p Halfblack Zebra Pearlscale
12.50%   h/h Halfblack
25.00%   h/h - p/+ Halfblack
12.50%   h/h - p/p Halfblack Pearlscale

Sibling cross..one a pearl (two doses)....the other 'heterogeneous' (het) for pearl, one dose
Male:  h/h - p/p  - Halfblack Pearlscale
Female:  h/h - Z/+ - p/+  - Halfblack Zebra

Results
25.00%   h/h - Z/+ - p/+ Halfblack Zebra
25.00%   h/h - Z/+ - p/p Halfblack Zebra Pearlscale
25.00%   h/h - p/+ Halfblack                  +++++++
25.00%   h/h - p/p Halfblack Pearlscale  +++++++

remember that pearl scale and HB are both recessive genes..it takes (2) doses of them to express..so without knowing exactly which fry/angels, etc you might have selected...pick a result out of the last results listed above..... Liz, because those genes are recessive..you wouldn't be able to tell if you selected them , or not.. check the fin markings to see how many Zebra showed up in your choosings...Zebra will express in single dose...you likely have a mix of what I've put 'pluses' behind above..if you aren't seeing Zebra fin markings....If you are seeing some Zebra markings....then you have some of the unchecked results above...
Now....look at the 'lettered' genetic code corresponding to what you see....hopefully that's what you have now. It'll take a real good representative spawn from this pair, and fry counts of all the survivors, to be able to 'nail' it down right....but this should be close.....
I hope makes sense?....Pauline, please grade my paper...I might have left something out, or unexplained...LOL...my mind races faster than my blasted fingers.....
.

[LizStreithorst]

If I'd known that I'd asked a question that involved so much thinking and typing I wouldn't have asked.  This will take me some time because of the way I learn.  I need to see things that I'm not used to seeing (which will be the easy part) I need to give what I see it the correct letter in the correct place.  You've given me a good way to start, Jon.  These letters mean nothing to me without seeing what them stand for in front of my eyes what they mean.
Thanks

[Mugwump]

Liz....It may look like gibberish right now.....but start using simple terms first...+/+ 'wild type' or silver
+/+ +/s....is a silver ghost....the small 's' is a stripeless gene....it's written small because it's recessive, or needs two copies to express......and after a bit add something else.....it'll become second nature after a bit.....You'll never learn it, if you try to get  'ALL' of it at once....

copy/print/save,  this and keep it handy....
>>>>>>>>>
Angelfish Genetic Notations


A. Notations to be used for accepted genes:

1. The letter designation of a gene name shall be its first letter unless that letter is already taken in which case the first two letters of the gene name shall be used.

2. The first letter will be uppercase if the gene is dominant to wild-type. The first letter will be lowercase if the gene is recessive to wild-type.

3. The second letter will always be lowercase.

4. If the first two letters are already used for an existing gene notation, then the next available consonant in the gene name will be used for the second letter.
5. The first letters of each word will be used for genes with more than one word attached to them.
6. Wild-type will be designated by (+).
7. The preferred written format will be to separate alleles with a (/). ex. for Hybrid Black D/g; for Smokey Sm/+. Fish that are dual-hybrids, tri-hybrids, etc. will have loci separated with a (-). ex. for Zebra Lace Z/+ - D/+ or Z/Z - D/+; for Half-black Zebra Lace h/h - Z/+ - D/+

B. Proven Genes accepted

1. Dark 
D
partially dominant
Dark locus

2. Marble   
M
partially dominant
Dark locus

3. Zebra   
Z
partially dominant
Stripeless locus

4. Gold   
g
recessive characteristic
Dark locus

5. Stripeless
S
partially dominant
Stripeless locus

6. Smokey
Sm
partially dominant
Smokey locus

7. Half-black 
h
recessive characteristic
Halfblack locus

8. Gold marble
Gm 
partially dominant
Dark locus

9. Pearl 
p
recessive characteristic
Pearl locus

10. Streaked
St
partially dominant
Streaked locus

11. Veil   
V
partially dominant
Veil locus

12. Albino
a
recessive characteristic
Albino locus

[PaulineMi]

Liz I'm not offering an explanation because I no longer have a memory in this old overcrowded brain.  I have to keep looking things up as I go.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks Mug.  Please don't tell me any more until I digest the info you and Pauline have given me.  I'll nag you when I get hungry for more

[LizStreithorst]

Liz I'm not offering an explanation because I no longer have a memory in this old overcrowded brain.  I have to keep looking things up as I go.

Please don't apologize, Pauline.  I have plenty to feast on from what Jon has given me.

[Mugwump]

If I'd known that I'd asked a question that involved so much thinking and typing I wouldn't have asked.  This will take me some time because of the way I learn.  I need to see things that I'm not used to seeing (which will be the easy part) I need to give what I see it the correct letter in the correct place.  You've given me a good way to start, Jon.  These letters mean nothing to me without seeing what them stand for in front of my eyes what they mean.
Thanks

Always feel free to ask, Liz....If I can't give the answer that you'll need....I'll go find one..'K' ?