New TAF thread i started,please post THERE, (IF) you can.
Will make it easier for me to follow input.
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=33867
I don't think I have any fish that are not het for something. However I did subscribe to the thread so that I can follow what will be an interesting project.
Quote from: wsantia1 on May 19, 2015, 01:07:55 PM
I don't thin I have any fish that are not het for something. However I did subscribe to the thread so that I can follow what will be an interesting project.
I would too, if he'd stop posting in caps... 8)
i think i have some h/b that are just h/b
Quote from: Mugwump on May 19, 2015, 01:19:03 PM
Quote from: wsantia1 on May 19, 2015, 01:07:55 PM
I don't thin I have any fish that are not het for something. However I did subscribe to the thread so that I can follow what will be an interesting project.
I would too, if he'd stop posting in caps... 8)
NOT going to happen. ;D
Quote from: greydragon on May 19, 2015, 01:45:34 PM
i think i have some h/b that are just h/b
Have you done any crosses,if so can you say what hidden genes they don't carry.
Quote from: greydragon on May 19, 2015, 01:45:34 PM
i think i have some h/b that are just h/b
I'm the thinking that the ones I sent you were all Zebras but I might be wrong. I had pure ones but a guy came buy who had a pocketful of money and the pure ones were the ones were the ones he wanted. He took them all. I have just 2 pairs I'm woking with now. One pair are both Z/Z The other pair may each be Z/+. I'll have to take a look at the fry they have now.
Looks like Carol just wants to sell you her, or David's, fish...."Dantums"...that's a one trick pony bro....what is a Dantum....never have seen the answer to that.....must be top secret, or something?....I've asked, but no cigar....
David ::) Has he patented the name Daltum yet?
Quote from: LizStreithorst on May 19, 2015, 03:26:06 PM
David ::) Has he patented the name Daltum yet?
He
was just 'trademark' ing it......
lol. Not as bad as a patent I guess. He told me once that he invented PB's. Sheesh.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on May 19, 2015, 03:37:49 PM
lol. Not as bad as a patent I guess. He told me once that he invented PB's. Sheesh.
LOL.....he imported them all......
Quote from: Mugwump on May 19, 2015, 02:57:26 PM
Looks like Carol just wants to sell you her, or David's, fish...."Dantums"...that's a one trick pony bro....what is a Dantum....never have seen the answer to that.....must be top secret, or something?....I've asked, but no cigar....
I'm the one who contacted Carol about her Dantum cross stock,through several PM's.She has been helpfull in answering my questions. The fish i was looking for she no longer has,david got the standard fin fish from that cross,that's why she suggested i contact him.
The Dantums were originally bred in Israel,if i remenber correcty he got a pair,or a few adults from a breeder,maybe from germany but can't remember.
That breeder told him they were a Altum X Scalare cross,doubtful.More likely a so called Peruvien Altum,really a scalare.
The color in them looks very close to other peruvians to me,other then being albinos.
And closest to Rio Nanays,with the yellow/gold spotting,and also blue on the gill plates.They also have the fin extentions common in peruvians.
My (guess) is they are a peruvian X domestic cross,possibly crossed back to the peruvians since they favor them so much,don't know if they would look like that with only 50% blood.But possible.
NON albinos were also brought over by David,pics and video's are online,i think there is a video link here from the breeder in Israel.
Im debating getting some peruvians from Steve AP,and crossing those to them.
Have a Cigar on me. ;D
One thing i do know for sure,my pair is 100% stupid.They layed again this morning,on the mostly algae covered glass,right next to the slate.
Many of the eggs not sticking and hitting the bottom,then they started picking at each other to see who was going to guard them/or eat them maybe.
So i just split the tank with an egg crate,only thing that did was freak out the male,and now so far the female is mostly ignoring the eggs.
Quote from: ghonk on May 19, 2015, 04:21:28 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on May 19, 2015, 02:57:26 PM
Looks like Carol just wants to sell you her, or David's, fish...."Dantums"...that's a one trick pony bro....what is a Dantum....never have seen the answer to that.....must be top secret, or something?....I've asked, but no cigar....
I'm the one who contacted Carol about her Dantum cross stock,through several PM's.She has been helpfull in answering my questions. The fish i was looking for she no longer has,david got the standard fin fish from that cross,that's why she suggested i contact him.
The Dantums were originally bred in Israel,if i remenber correcty he got a pair,or a few adults from a breeder,maybe from germany but can't remember.
That breeder told him they were a Altum X Scalare cross,doubtful.More likely a so called Peruvien Altum,really a scalare.
The color in them looks very close to other peruvians to me,other then being albinos.
And closest to Rio Nanays,with the yellow/gold spotting,and also blue on the gill plates.They also have the fin extentions common in peruvians.
My (guess) is they are a peruvian X domestic cross,possibly crossed back to the peruvians since they favor them so much,don't know if they would look like that with only 50% blood.But possible.
NON albinos were also brought over by David,pics and video's are online,i think there is a video link here from the breeder in Israel.
Im debating getting some peruvians from Steve AP,and crossing those to them.
Have a Cigar on me. ;D
The above is still speculative, no one knows for sure...any crosses should have been informative enough, right...now they're available only multi-hets ??
I don't know what they truly were to begin with... so I'll just be mum....
Yes, I remember their journey's, etc.....and pics, but nothing definitive was ever given except Altum crosses..two/three/four breeders involved....all with clean fish??...you tell me...so I'll pass on the cigar.. ;D
Quote from: ghonk on May 19, 2015, 04:43:58 PM
One thing i do know for sure,my pair is 100% stupid.They layed again this morning,on the mostly algae covered glass,right next to the slate.
Many of the eggs not sticking and hitting the bottom,then they started picking at each other to see who was going to guard them/or eat them maybe.
So i just split the tank with an egg crate,only thing that did was freak out the male,and now so far the female is mostly ignoring the eggs.
Sad, some pairs never get the hang of it right.....
Pairs that stupid aren't worth the effort unless you are doing it for your own satisfaction of having been able to do it.
'Most nobody agrees with me, and one day I may change my mind, but I think that any fish that is too stupid to raise it's own kids is not worth bothering with.
Well i have no doubts that they have have wild blood in them,and would bet it's peruvian and probably Rio Nanay.
You are NEVER going to find domestic stock with those yellow/gold spots.
Compare pics of Rio Nanays to the color in the Dantums,very simuilar.
Can i prove it,of course not.But they are good enough for me,i love them.
Body shape,finage and color are as good as or better then most domestics,in my opinion.
And they are ALBINOS ;D.
I guess you didn't like them as much,you got rid of your's.What were you expecting them to be when you bought them?
They are what they are,are they from the same stock as the guy who developed them.YES,i don't think there is any doubt about that,they haven't been passed around like a joint at a dead concert,mine haven't been anyway.No SMOKEY gene,get it. ;)
I didn't buy them...and expected nothing....no interest in them after I saw them really....hey, if you like them, great...go for it...wasn't my thing..
Sure they're from the guy, who got them from a guy, and sent them to David, who got some to Carol...Rio Nanay appearing?...agreed....after that ??....nothings proven as to what's in them....David may still have the std fin stock from Carol....that she has multi-hets from.....??....hey bro, you're the one that wanted 'pure' stock', not me...and now you're going to settle for ???......cool, go fer it....maybe cross them into your Albino Dantums and answer the question once and for all.....what's in them.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: LizStreithorst on May 19, 2015, 05:19:23 PM
Pairs that stupid aren't worth the effort unless you are doing it for your own satisfaction of having been able to do it.
'Most nobody agrees with me, and one day I may change my mind, but I think that any fish that is too stupid to raise it's own kids is not worth bothering with.
I would have to pull them at free swimming anyway,or they will all starve for sure being albinos.
But it would be nice if they would raise them up to that point,or at least lay them on the slate more then once every forth time so i can pull them.
Quote from: ghonk on May 19, 2015, 07:02:26 PM
Quote from: LizStreithorst on May 19, 2015, 05:19:23 PM
Pairs that stupid aren't worth the effort unless you are doing it for your own satisfaction of having been able to do it.
'Most nobody agrees with me, and one day I may change my mind, but I think that any fish that is too stupid to raise it's own kids is not worth bothering with.
I would have to pull them at free swimming anyway,or they will all starve for sure being albinos.
But it would be nice if they would raise them up to that point,or at least lay them on the slate more then once every forth time so i can pull them.
I think Dave Ramirez has parent raising albinos....go figure..... ;D
Quote from: Mugwump on May 19, 2015, 07:01:46 PM
I didn't buy them...and expected nothing....no interest in them after I saw them really....hey, if you like them, great...go for it...wasn't my thing..
Sure they're from the guy, who got them from a guy, and sent them to David, who got some to Carol...Rio Nanay appearing?...agreed....after that ??....nothings proven as to what's in them....David may still have the std fin stock from Carol....that she has multi-hets from.....??....hey bro, you're the one that wanted 'pure' stock', not me...and now you're going to settle for ???......cool, go fer it....maybe cross them into your Albino Dantums and answer the question once and for all.....what's in them.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't think you know what i'm trying to do,i want to add the PB gene to the Dantums,without adding any hidden genes.I also want to increase the % of dantum blood in the crosses.
I can't find anyone that has PB fish that knows the genetics of their fish . If i'm going to buy THOSE fish i might as well get them from carol,which would save me a generation of crosses since her fish are already 50% dantum blood.
My Dantums X Carol's 50% Dantum blood fish ,offspring would be 75% Dantum blood.
My Dantums X Non Dantum blood fish,offspring would be 50% Dantum blood.
Saving me a generation of crosses to get that 75% if i use Carol's.
You say Carol's fish from the cross are Multi-Hets,i don't know if they are or not,she didn't know.
The original Albino Dantum was crossed was to a Pinoy Paraiba,which may or may not have carried any hidden genes.
But since NO one else can confirm if their fish carries those hidden genes,why use those.
Carol only has veils from the original cross,i want standard fin fish,she also crossed other fish into that line,so their offspring are no longer 50% Dantum blood.And also increased the chances of adding hidden genes.
That's why she ask David,he might still have some standard fin fish from the original cross.
I know exactly what i want to do,and know how to do it.
GOAL
Blue Silvers and Albino Blue Silvers,75% or more Dantum blood.No hidden genes.
GOAL 2.0
D/+ Pinoys and D/+ Albino Pinoys,75% or more Dantum blood.No hidden genes.
Quote from: ghonk on May 19, 2015, 08:08:26 PM
Quote from: Mugwump on May 19, 2015, 07:01:46 PM
I didn't buy them...and expected nothing....no interest in them after I saw them really....hey, if you like them, great...go for it...wasn't my thing..
Sure they're from the guy, who got them from a guy, and sent them to David, who got some to Carol...Rio Nanay appearing?...agreed....after that ??....nothings proven as to what's in them....David may still have the std fin stock from Carol....that she has multi-hets from.....??....hey bro, you're the one that wanted 'pure' stock', not me...and now you're going to settle for ???......cool, go fer it....maybe cross them into your Albino Dantums and answer the question once and for all.....what's in them.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't think you know what i'm trying to do,i want to add the PB gene to the Dantums,without adding any hidden genes.I also want to increase the % of dantum blood in the crosses.
I can't find anyone that has PB fish that knows the genetics of their fish . If i'm going to buy THOSE fish i might as well get them from carol,which would save me a generation of crosses since her fish are already 50% dantum blood.
My Dantums X Carol's 50% Dantum blood fish ,offspring would be 75% Dantum blood.
My Dantums X Non Dantum blood fish,offspring would be 50% Dantum blood.
Saving me a generation of crosses to get that 75% if i use Carol's.
You say Carol's fish from the cross are Multi-Hets,i don't know if they are or not,she didn't know.
The original Albino Dantum was crossed was to a Pinoy Paraiba,which may or may not have carried any hidden genes.
But since NO one else can confirm if their fish carries those hidden genes,why use those.
Carol only has veils from the original cross,i want standard fin fish,she also crossed other fish into that line,so their offspring are no longer 50% Dantum blood.And also increased the chances of anding hidden genes.
That's why she ask David,he might still have some standard fin fish from the original cross.
I know exactly what i want to do,and know how to do it.
GOAL
Blue Silvers and Albino Blue Silvers,75% or more Dantum blood.No hidden genes.
GOAL 2.0
D/+ Pinoys and D/+ Albino Pinoys,75% or more Dantum blood.No hidden genes.
As long as you do that's all that matters..... ;D.....good luck then....keep us posted on the project...
I'm not going to cross anything to them until i confirm that fish doesn't carry gold or pearl.
Do you have any adult plat pearls that you want to sell,want to use it for the test crosses.
what would h/b look like with no other genes at play?Liz the first group you sent are a mix of zebra and silver pearlscale h/b ,the second group are all zebra h/b no pearlscale
question how would you find out if your gold angels are just gold?with no other genes
Quote from: greydragon on May 19, 2015, 08:38:47 PM
what would h/b look like with no other genes at play?Liz the first group you sent are a mix of zebra and silver pearlscale h/b ,the second group are all zebra h/b no pearlscale
Quote from: greydragon on May 19, 2015, 08:38:47 PM
what would h/b look like with no other genes at play?Liz the first group you sent are a mix of zebra and silver pearlscale h/b ,the second group are all zebra h/b no pearlscale
I forgot about the PS gene. If you want pure you will need to select the Silver HB's and try to not use a veil and pray that the PS doesn't show up in later generations. If you have two silver Hb's that are male and female in the bunch you have it mostly licked. The ps gene will be lurking. You shroud be able to breed back to standard fins.
These are the exact fish that I started out with from George Garcia. All standard fin HB,s, All peas in a pod. To be honest they were rather dull. That's why I introduced the Zebra veils from Angels Plus, and when I found a non-turned one that was a PS, bred it back into the line.
I've been working with these guys for years. They need new blood. I bought a nice pair of blue silvers on Aquabid for a song whose fry I would like to cross my existing stuff with. I'm making my mutts more mutty ;)
Quote from: greydragon on May 19, 2015, 08:40:12 PM
question how would you find out if your gold angels are just gold?with no other genes
LOTS of crosses.They would have to checked for several genes.
Albino,Pearl,Stripless,Streaked,Smokey,Half Black,i'm i forgetting any. :)
Quote from: ghonk on May 19, 2015, 09:15:57 PM
Quote from: greydragon on May 19, 2015, 08:40:12 PM
question how would you find out if your gold angels are just gold?with no other genes
LOTS of crosses.They would have to checked for several genes.
Albino,Pearl,Stripless,Streaked,Smokey,Half Black,i'm i forgetting any. :)
Cross it with another proven gold first.....and/or...then back cross a couple fry to the parents would be a good start........
An albino ghost pearl would be a good start.
Or cross it too a zebra pearl half black,since you might already have one of those.
Zebra might already be showing up in the golds dorsal,i THINK it does some times.
But a zebra cross to the gold would confirm if the gold carries zebra,and also check for pearl with the pearl cross.
You could cross the offspring back to your half blacks to check for that,and hope they express if they carry it.
Quote from: ghonk on May 20, 2015, 06:05:12 AM
An albino ghost pearl would be a good start.
..if you can find one??...Frank's HE's would be perfect.....HB/SS/Gold/PB/albino.....
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My Turqs are a cross between a D/D Str/- V/+ Sire and Hb/Hb S/S dame. I think these are the guys you got through me.
Your turqs should be hybrids within the mix of four types that emerged.
Possible fish should be "german blue" type ( non Pb ) blush, Single dose D and double dose stripeless (turqs) D/D S/- Black blush and D/D S/S black velvets.
I have taken to line setting the Hb/- black velvets in super veil and chosen those with bronze and without.
I have done the same to the Hb/- D/D S/- V/+
The other fish that have complex genetics have some very interesting stuff going on as well. I am getting really magnificent looking fish from the partial and incomplete expressers, some real starter fish to get some jaw droppers going. You have those same hybrids as I do. And then I have some full expressers as well, but the partials throw several types that the fulls do not and so I keep them for the Pb/Pb A/A S/S G/- and cobalts.
You mean Frank's mutts. ;D
The Albino Dantum Female is now confirmed,a confirmed egg eater.
Quote from: ghonk on May 20, 2015, 06:25:22 AM
You mean Frank's mutts. ;D
LOL....dat be dem.... ;D
Quote from: ghonk on May 20, 2015, 06:35:44 AM
The Albino Dantum Female is now confirmed,a confirmed egg eater.
Last week, at first glance, I thought I had a grotesquely sick Dantum. When I went over to check her out she was depositing eggs on the front glass of the tank for the whole world to see. As usual she would make one pass followed up by her and her buddy eating all of the eggs. Not being the modest type she continued depositing eggs in front of me without a care in the world. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM02WcvlKn0
LOL....some are real 'hussies' , huh?..... ;D