A question about conformation

[LizStreithorst]

I saw this in my 11/24 spawn a couple of weeks ago and can no longer play pretend I didn't see it.  Most of these kids have a very small divet in the forehead just before the start of the dorsal.  I looked at my pairs and only 3 fish of 10 don't have it.  Today I looked at the Koi I got from Mug and their blending from the forehead to the dorsal it perfectly smooth.

In breeding for show quality Discus this would be a fault bad enough to cull for.  How bad a fault is it in Angels?

It' hard to capture in a pic.  This is the best I could do.  It's one of the kids.  I'll try getting a pic of one of the adults that have it.  It should be easier.

[LizStreithorst]

Here's the best pics I could get of it on the adults.  It's hard to get on the camera.

[Mugwump]

The mouth/snout sometimes is very pronounced...this is due to the background lineage of the pairs used for breeding. Pterophyllum Scalare come from various locales along the Amazon waters and tributaries. Hence variance in facial presentation is expected...as is body shape...round vs high body
What you're seeing is the same as different noses on different people...but some are similar if from the same background area, etc. These body traits may go back as far as the initial crossing of there ancestors.
I can see where Discus may have a preferred shape, but culling for natures actions that are unavoidable sure shouldn't be one of them. With Angels, we embrace the difference, tho may still have a visual preference.

[LizStreithorst]

I know about the wild type mouth.  What I'm seeing is a dent in the forehead just before the start of the dorsal.  May be my pics aren't good enough.

[Mugwump]

Here's the best pics I could get of it on the adults.  It's hard to get on the camera.

You're not talking about the protein nuchal hump are you?? That normally is present on the males, tho some females get a smaller feature. That appears on fish (not just angels) that are eating an abundance of high protein foods. It's another visual thing, like it our not. It's more common in older fish too....a build up, if you will....

[LizStreithorst]

Nope.  It's not that.  I even see it in the kids.   it's a tiny dent just before the dorsal starts.  I thought I captured it well on one of the adult's pics.  Apparently not. 

[Mugwump]

Nope.  It's not that.  I even see it in the kids.   it's a tiny dent just before the dorsal starts.  I thought I captured it well on one of the adult's pics.  Apparently not.

elongated snout/forehead?? football shaped frontal body?.....if so...I'm not a fan either....

you're not referring to where the gill plats opening extends to the backish area are you??

[BallAquatics]

Is this the indentation you are referring to Liz?



Dennis

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, that!  I can see it in the kids, too so it can't be just the cichlid hump.

[Mugwump]

Yes, that!  I can see it in the kids, too so it can't be just the cichlid hump.

In the adults, that's the back side of the 'hump'.....in fry.....they likely just haven't fuuly developed their bodies yet...it's hard to discern whether that will be evident at juvie/adult size...likely not...but the more easily acquired hump might be in the strain....ask George if his had it??.....if undesirable to you, cross to the lines that don't have it....select, etc...you can breed it out....

thanks, Dennis..

[Mugwump]

Some angels do have a rounder body, and facial feature.....like the taller body scalare, they don't get that at all...it's back to what the original lines were, and whom they were paired with....

[Owl307]

i've had angels with it but ive always known it as a deformity known as a notch that always is passed down through generations...

[Mugwump]

i've had angels with it but ive always known it as a deformity known as a notch that always is passed down through generations...

That's not a notch Mel.........these are notched
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/content.php/71-Dr-Norton-Article-Notched-An-Angelfish-Deformity

[Owl307]

thats quite an extreme notch. i had a breeder in chicago show me the indention like that on platinums and he said it was notches, said its hard to breed out of the line.. everyone has different ideas and opinions i guess, i personally dont like it

[LizStreithorst]

It's been a long time since I had George's but if remember correctly they were smoothly blended.  I'm glad to know that what I see is not a dreadful fault, but I don't like it either. I will do my best to breed it out.  I prefer smooth.  Thanks for the help gentlemen.