TDS/EC meter

[Mugwump]

While at Wally World this morning, I took a quick look over to see it the Camping/RV stuff was still out...nope.....I'll look better next time that we're there...I doubt they have the TDS meters still out....maybe I'll check online???

[BallAquatics]

They took down the TDS meters and replaced them with ice cube trays Jon..... he he he

Dennis

[Mugwump]

They took down the TDS meters and replaced them with ice cube trays Jon..... he he he

Dennis

LOL...probably....or Easter candy.?

[wsantia1]

While at Wally World this morning, I took a quick look over to see it the Camping/RV stuff was still out...nope.....I'll look better next time that we're there...I doubt they have the TDS meters still out....maybe I'll check online???

Jon I can pick you up one if you need me to.

[Mugwump]

I have one around here somewhere ..LOL...I thought I'd see what they were all about, then perhaps grab another one to lose around here....LOL....it might increase the odds of finding at least one anyway... ...don't do anything special Willie, but if you see one over there...sure, get me one, please....I'll get it from you at the swap. or whenever???

[LizStreithorst]

Membranes are susceptible to breakdown if chlorine in the tap water gets to the RO membranes. This kind of problem will result in water going through unfiltered resulting in higher conductivity (or TDS readings). The charcoal removes chlorine but can eventually get maxed out. I have three charcoal filters in series before my RO membranes. The first one does most of the work and the others (which were given to me) will take out any chlorine that might get through when the first one is used up. I have little valves between the different filters and can test each with a chlorine test after each filter (you could also just detach the tubing to do the same thing). I try to test things every couple of months.

Hard water can make deposits on the inside of the membranes. This will not necessarily increase conductivity, but will clog up the membranes and reduce the yield of good water and probably increase the reject water.

The water where I live is very soft (30-40 micro Siemans). I have been running my current set of membranes for about 5 years (output is between 0 and 2 micro Siemans according to my little meter). I think their longevity is due to the combination of soft water and charcoal filters. I would guess I make about 50 G/day.
There is also some color changing absorbent media (ion exchange resin?) which I just got a replacement for because its about 2/3 changed. Soft water would use this up more slowly.

You're smart in ways that I am not so may I ask you a couple of questions?  My water has 0 gH and 4.5kH.  I'd be able to breed in straight tap if the numbers were the other way around.  Ph 6.8 out of the tap but goes up 7.2 after aging. That's too much of a swing to make me comfortable using straight tap.  Even though many Discus people think that much of a swing is fine it makes me uncomfortable, so I age.  Given my numbers, and that my pre-filters look clean when I replace them every 6 months should I replace them more often?   Can I only expect 4 years from a membrane if I change prefilters more often?

I'm considering a whole house carbon filter, but I'm a little afraid.  I take pride in doing all my own plumbing except for very close work which is over my head.  I would have to do it myself.  Would I have to dig a hole and bury it in a box out from where the line comes into my house?

[wsantia1]

I have one around here somewhere ..LOL...I thought I'd see what they were all about, then perhaps grab another one to lose around here....LOL....it might increase the odds of finding at least one anyway... ...don't do anything special Willie, but if you see one over there...sure, get me one, please....I'll get it from you at the swap. or whenever???

Next time I'm in there I'll see if they have any more on the shelves.

[Mugwump]

"I'm considering a whole house carbon filter, but I'm a little afraid.  I take pride in doing all my own plumbing except for very close work which is over my head.  I would have to do it myself.  Would I have to dig a hole and bury it in a box out from where the line comes into my house?"

No, add the filter after the water line enters your house. You should have a shut off inside, put it after the shut off valve....in line with the house supply line....

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Whole-House-3-4-in-Inlet-Water-Filtration-System-GXWH04F/100471282?N=aqz5#

I just use the 'blue' ones, about $18 bucks.....

[Mugwump]

I have one around here somewhere ..LOL...I thought I'd see what they were all about, then perhaps grab another one to lose around here....LOL....it might increase the odds of finding at least one anyway... ...don't do anything special Willie, but if you see one over there...sure, get me one, please....I'll get it from you at the swap. or whenever???

Next time I'm in there I'll see if they have any more on the shelves.

OK,,,probably seasonal like ours here...

[LizStreithorst]

I've got all my stuff ordered, but I did it after hours on Friday for Water Anywhere which is in California.  I like them there because the only other time I had a problem, a sponsor on simple suggested I buy a whole new unit from him.  Someone else there suggested Water Anywhere.  I called Water Anywhere and told the man that.  He fixed me up with new membranes and prefilters for a fraction of what the other man would have charged me for a new unit.  He could have taken advantage of me because I was ignorant but he did not.

What I have coming is 2 100gpd membranes, 6 CBC-10 carbon blocks, and 6 AMI 5 micron filters.  With shipping ($20. UPS ground) from California the total came to $165.  I think that's good. 

[BillT]

I'm considering a whole house carbon filter, but I'm a little afraid.  I take pride in doing all my own plumbing except for very close work which is over my head.  I would have to do it myself.  Would I have to dig a hole and bury it in a box out from where the line comes into my house?

I would agree with what Mug said. It depends upon the details of your plumbing however and what you really want to do. Maybe the bathroom doesn't matter because you might not drink water there. If that branches off first you could filter all the rest but not that flow. Where is Frank the Plumber?

My favorite place to put a filter is hanging on a wall, so that it is easy to change.

Everything I am writing assumes that when you are saying filters your are talking about charcoal or carbon filters.

My water has 0 gH and 4.5kH.  ... Given my numbers, and that my pre-filters look clean when I replace them every 6 months should I replace them more often?   Can I only expect 4 years from a membrane if I change prefilters more often?

I am used to the gH kH system, so I looked it up.
If gH is total hardness then you have very soft water. Good for the membranes not getting clogged up with chemicals and reducing your yield. Therefore good for a long membrane life. Some definitions of this only look at divalent cations (ions with two positive charges). This would be calcium (Ca⁺⁺) and magnesium (Mg⁺⁺). In that case other ions with single charges could be present like potassium (K⁺), sodium (Na⁺), and hydrogen (H⁺). They might have a clogging effect on your membranes.

If the kH is carbonate hardness, it should be a measure of carbonate buffering which stabilizes the pH. If it is not contributing a lot to your water hardness, I would not expect it to have much of an effect. Since the gH is zero it must make a tiny contribution to the gH.
If your gH is measuring only the cations (calcium and magnesium), then the counter ion in the water for the carbonate (CO₃^--) (the water should be neutrally charged, every plus needs a minus) would probably be a combination of sodium, potassium, and hydrogen.

My guess is your carbon filter got used up and chlorine got to your membranes at some time. If you prevent that your membranes could probably have a very long life. Generally I don't like carbon filters. they can be useful but for most of their uses you can't tell if they are really working or not until they are clearly not working. For RO membranes that would be too late. For most uses of charcoal there is no real good test of its function, but for chlorine there is, chlorine tests.

That is why I use the serial charcoal filter method, combined with periodic testing. The first filter the charcoal will get used up first for chlorine removal after which the next one will take over. If you test frequently enough to detect chlorine between the first and second filters before you do after the second one, then you know that it is time to replace the first one. And ideally move the second partially used filter into the position of the first one so that you are not relying upon a partially depleted filter as a back-up. I use three filters because I have the filter housings, and I kind of anal that way.

The most easy way to make sure I do these things is to make everything as easy and quick to do as possible (I tend to be lazy). My set-up is one larger filter for the fish room in general, plumbed in with PVC, with a sampling valve after it. I also have two more filters just for the RO machine. These have two little valves on the 1/4" poly tubing for sampling after each filter. Makes testing easy and quick. No disassembly required. Ideally filter removal would be easier. Un-screwing the filter housings can be difficult, but there are large plastic wrenches you can get that fit over the housing which makes it easier. the easier something is the more likely it will get done on time.

Also something Mug mentioned; shutoff valves upstream of anything you might want to open up or disconnect are really handy.
Mostly valves are not that expensive (compared to the equipment) and easy to deal with. They are not that hard to install if you do it when you are first setting things up.
You might be able to get cheap valves at building equipment recycling stores. We have two in town, one that collects materials for recycling from the stream of stuff going to the dump and another (Habitat for Humanity) which seems to get unused extras from contractors. Thrift stores may have some also.

My water has 0 gH and 4.5kH.  I'd be able to breed in straight tap if the numbers were the other way around.  Ph 6.8 out of the tap but goes up 7.2 after aging.

Just out of curiosity about your water chemistry:

What is your pH after aging?
What is the pH of your RO water (maybe its not strong enough to measure)?

I am thinking carbon dioxide (CO₂) is dissolved in you water. It will then form carbonic acid (H₂CO₃) by combining with a water molecule (H₂O) and will decrease the pH, making the water more acidic.
However the water can then (perhaps) lose carbon dioxide to the air during the aging process resulting in the pH drop. This can also happen a lot if you use sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO₃). It seems that the sodium ion is not so strong as calcium and magnesium at keeping the carbonate ion attracted to the water instead of the air.

[LizStreithorst]

"I'm considering a whole house carbon filter, but I'm a little afraid.  I take pride in doing all my own plumbing except for very close work which is over my head.  I would have to do it myself.  Would I have to dig a hole and bury it in a box out from where the line comes into my house?"

No, add the filter after the water line enters your house. You should have a shut off inside, put it after the shut off valve....in line with the house supply line....

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Whole-House-3-4-in-Inlet-Water-Filtration-System-GXWH04F/100471282?N=aqz5#

I just use the 'blue' ones, about $18 bucks.....

I have no main shut off in the house.  The only shut off valve I have is way down at the end of my long private dirt drive way.  If I have a disaster I have to drive fast to the end of the road, pliers in hand.  I can't put a big one in the fish room either for reasons that are easy to see, but hard to describe.  I don't want to bother taking pics and posting them so you'll just have to believe me.

Bill, the way you describe things is hard for me to understand, but if I work on it I get the important stuff.  I think our minds work differently.  I will do as you say and get another carbon block for the RO unit and put a sampling valve between the first and second.  I have the plastic wrench to unscrew the housings.  I have to use big channel locks to open up the housings to the membranes.

I'm sure that I do have CO2 in my incoming tap.  My community water comes from a deep aquifer and well water is almost devoid of free O2.  Before aging my water is pH 6.8.  After aging it's 7.2.  My pH meter died even before my TDS meter and I saw no reason to replace it.  If my memory is correct, my RO was neutral at pH7.

Thanks for the advice, Bill.

[Mugwump]

Where does your water 'main' line enter the house???....it has to start it's house run from somewhere???...even if it comes in underground.....where's your first access to water in the house...kitchen?..laundry room??.....if you find it...you can have a valve added there....

[LizStreithorst]

As far as I can determine the water line goes first to a hose connection outside my kitchen.  The kitchen sink has a shut off, but it only shuts off the water to the kitchen sink.  I think everything else is under the slab.  It would be nice to have a shut off right outside the house but I don't want to do all that digging through clay gravel.  I'll just do it Bill's way.  It will suit my purpose.