Longfin? Second opinion

[Jdmcfast]

I was sold this trio of supposed long fin BN. As soon as I recieved them I took a picture and emailed the seller telling him that I did not get the fish that were in the pics he showed me before purchase. I am new to Longfins but I think it is fairly obvious that the male is not one. The seller got extremely upset and accussed me of personal attacks on him and seemed to do everything possible to change the subject off of the male, including bringing up the fact that I tried to talk him down on his price and asking him if he would send a few small fry with them. I don't really understand what any of that has to do with whether it is a longfin or not.  He said that it had just spawned and had rubbed all his fins off. So I have waited a month and a half and guess what it still looks the same. Anyways I wanted to get someone elses opinion does this male llook like a longfin BN to you? And if a longfin was gonna rub its fins off in a cave wouldn't it just be the fins he is fanning with not all of them including dorsel and tail fins?
          I contacted the seller again yesterday and he still refuses to admit that there could be any possible way that anything was his fault and still sticks to his guns that it is a longfin.
What do you think?

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[Jdmcfast]

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

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[Jo]

Are you talking about the one on bottom? I don't think it is a longfin, but I am not an expert on these fish. these are first I've ever had. This is mine not good quality pic, but can see longer fins and mine is albino.

[Jdmcfast]

yes the 2 females are long fins but not the male

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[BillT]

I am no expert on these fish but i have had a lot of longfin fish.
If the long fins were "rubbed off" I would expect them to be frayed and uneven on the trailing edge, which the one in question is obviously not.
Also a month and a half is plenty of time for a well maintained fish to at least start to regenerate its fins. Regenerated fins usually look a bit different.
His devious responses also seem to be indicative of something not right. I would not trust this person.

[Mugwump]

The only thing that you can do now is let them spawn. Hopefully the male is 'het' for the LF gene and you'll get a 50/50 mix of std/LF.....I'll bet they're from the same spawn themselves...

[BillT]

Some longfin genes are recessive, some are dominant. Some are semi-dominant which can give three sizes normal, long, super long. Two or three different genes (with different genetics) that result in long fins have been found in zebrafish.

[Jdmcfast]

I will try to get the pic that he showed me before purchasing, it was obviously a longfin.

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[Jdmcfast]

He we go this is what I thought I was buying

Do these look like the same fish?

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[Rjb3]

Nope

[Jo]

They don't to me either.

[b125killer]

That's not the same. Is this the same person you got the angels from?

[Jdmcfast]

No it is not they are from someone off of TAF2
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[ilroost]

not the same fish i would say

[wkndracer]

It wasn't rocket science to find this thread and it wouldn't take much to reverse track it so as it went public here let me add the rest of the details and ask opinions.

This is the original post of those pictures.
http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?p=264814#post264814
It was posted on 17May12 Post#20. Not just the photos the OP chooses to remember but all of them. These fish were sold and transferred the end of August (+3 months).

In my opinion none of my responses were devious or off topic. Each time I replied I tried to address what was asked and said. Once the fish arrived I tried to ignore the hostile tone of the OP. Would you like to share those too? How would anyone respond to this?

Scroll down and read the progression of information. Perceptions of point may be different but the intent was to provide what you requested. LF fish yes! Absolutely! But the primary concern you conveyed to me was wanting breeders. Breeding fish was the goal #1 you seemed most interested in.  I edited nothing, just placed them in order by date. Based on the interest expressed in updates on the last spawn I sent the two I knew were in the cave, that seemed to be primary above all else. You wanted actively breeding fish. Also told you fighting or crowding had the only other male in terrible shape. Man up or whatever else you want to call it and realize I provided 100% effort in sending what you said you wanted. This discussion didn?t start with ?fins? being most important to you by what you wrote. Then the first message after receipt was a twofold accusation.

?I received the fish today (A) these are definitely not the ones in the pics, and (B) the male is a very young short fin! What's up with that??
A) Same fish regardless of your thoughts, every fish sent was shown in that web post, 1st  you wanted BN?s, then females, then breeders in a group. 
B) Same age fish and the last pair spawning was included. I read three things stated but I guess the reality is only one matters in the end, fins on one fish ignoring the genetics.

Partial Reply - 2M, 4F are all I kept (and posted) on these and this male is the one I know tended the last clutch. You wanted assurances that they were proven breeders and I gave you that assurance. The remaining 3 fish in the pan (walked out and looked) have tattered fins currently too looking very much the same.
The remaining male here has next to no pectoral fins at all and will be months healing and growing them back so no way he was being sent. It happens with adults sometimes when they get to crowding each other for a breeding cave and the pan has only one in it.

The following is the exchange leading to the transaction.

9Aug12 jdmcfast - Do u have BN plecos for sale? How much? Do u ship? Im in Kansas 67114 /
Reply - I do have some thanks for asking.
How many are you wanting?
albino and browns are $5ea and shipping is $10.

If interested I'll get some tank info from ya as I condition them before they ship.

14Aug12 jdmcfast - Do u have any adult females? /
Reply ? only have LF brown in young adults right now

14Aug12 jdmcfast - Do u have 2 females and a male? /
Reply - no reply sent

14Aug12 jdmcfast - Do have a trio you could sale? /
Reply - Trio of LF browns (1M,2F) is 45 and 15 shipping needing a larger box.

Another person asked but hasn't sent funds yet.
These fish are posted on TAFF II.
Post #20

15Aug12 jdmcfast - Very beautiful are they proven breeders? /
Reply - I'll check the log tonight but yes one spawn to date for these. I removed the eggs and pitched them not needing more fish right now. (eggs were viable)

LFS wanted more so I put the log back in last week.

15Aug12 jdmcfast - Is there any way you could do it any cheaper? I would love to have this beautiful trio, but I actually bought a trio of sf from mugwamp earlier today!
Reply ? no reply sent

16Aug12 jdmcfast - If you could do like $ 50 shipped I can pay you tomorrow./
Reply ? no reply sent

27Aug12 jdmcfast - Do you still have a trio of LFBN for sale?/
Reply - Browns yes. Just had another spawn swim out of the cave and it looks to be 50/50 brown and albino on the fry.

28Aug12 jdmcfast - Sweet I will take them! Can you send some of their fry with them?/
Reply - Bwahahaha! Luv to but can't purge fry for shipping without staving them.
I can get them out right after the holiday weekend so is leaving here next Tuesday good on your schedule?
Should be to you no later than Thursday.

paypal addy is XXX

Kinda karma funny because I have a PM from another site asking about these and some angels.
28Aug12 jdmcfast - That will work! Is there anyway you could send some different little older fry with them then? Please?
And what kind of angels do u raise?/
Reply - Stretching the box but I'll see what I can do.
touch of sky on the site received some adults from me and can tell ya the packaging takes priority with each fish in its own bag. What are your tank parameters? (hardness)

My angel stock is based off mainly Carols Blues, Koi and a former member from Colorado sold me a group of DD.

ref the LFBN
With the member on TPT wanting the same fish these need to be paid so I can tell him they are sold.

Thanks,

28Aug12 jdmcfast - I am unaware of the exact hardness of my water as I do not test for that. Why do you ask? I can send the money now./
Reply - Asking because during the exit quarantine / purge week I can adjust water hardness if needed for those having hard water systems.

Using RO I can adjust to any range of GH hardness needed given enough time making the transfer less stressful on the receiving end of the shipment. My systems are all kept @ 3-5dGH, 2dKH with TDS from 140 -225ppm. Not a critical step but it does help depending on what water someone tanks with.


29Aug12 jdmcfast - These are not related are they? I thought I had asked you that already but apparently not /
Reply - These fish MAY be f1 siblings as I use common grow out tank. Both males have multiple females to spawn with but all fry of similar size grow out together.

30Aug12 jdmcfast - I know my water is somewhat hard but I don't know the exact
Reading, I could get it by borrowing a SW buddies kit if you really want it.
So its a pretty good chance that these are siblings?
How are their fry doing?
Are you able to send me some fry of a different age please?
Are these any different to breed than short fins?
require bigger caves or anything?
What do you use for caves?
Sorry for all the questions, but it seems you don't get on much so I will ask while I can./
Reply - I know my water is somewhat hard but I don't know the exact
Reading, I could get it by borrowing a SW buddies kit if you really want it.
Up to you, I'll be sending them in 5dGH water with a neutral pH so about 2dKH. I keep the pH low as ammonia isn't toxic with neutral or acidic pH.
Soft = better with shipping water.
So its a pretty good chance that these are siblings?
It's a 30% to 50/50 chance they MAY be F1 on 2 which is not an issue regarding future breeding of the trio. It's not a deal breaker even if 2 of them are siblings. All 3 together I would find it hard to believe the luck. Anyhow, like angels you wouldn't want to pair the offspring together repeating the pattern generation after generation creating pairs but with F1 it's not a problem I have ever read about or seen. F1 crosses are common.How are their fry doing?
Fry are pigs eating all the time.
Are you able to send me some fry of a different age please?
Adult fish have extending spurs like cat claws at the gill base and during shipping in a box they would cut up or kill any little fish bagged with them. If I feel a 4th bag will fit I can add it but water and air for the adults is priority.
Are these any different to breed than short fins?
require bigger caves or anything?
Same fish you will get short and long fins in each spawn and some albino.What do you use for caves?
Hollow logs mostly here.
(these fish need driftwood in the tank not to die)
1" PVC is large enough for a size reference.
Sorry for all the questions, but it seems you don't get on much so I will ask while I can.
When you got my paypal addy you got my email addy got a question, if/when I have time I answer.

31Aug12 jdmcfast - My KH checked between 5.7 - 7.0 depending on what tank I checked, With ph of 7.2./
Reply - KH or GH 5.7-7.0? 7.2pH is close to neutral

1Sep12 jdmcfast - 5.7 - 7 KH he does not have test for GH. I'm not real familiar with hardness testing are these acceptable ranges?

Nothing further was exchanged before the sale.

WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU WANT?!? And I won?t change how I do things because in 3yrs. doing this stuff you?re the only thorn. By what you messaged WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU WANT?!? WYSIWYG would have required current pics for selection and I?ve done that for people. You read what you sent, you tell me. You got the fish referred to in every exchange with the male being the best option at the time and fitting what I understood the goals to be and yes regret selling to you without a doubt.