Need some help learning from my mistake

[nix70c]

Hi guys,
I lurk on here a lot but don't post much. I was hoping to get some creative criticism and any insight on a recent tank meltdown. Sorry for the wall of text, I just want to be as thorough as possible, if nothing else for my own thought process.

I have a 75g tank, black blasting sand substrate, Emperor 400, Daylight dual 48" shoplight hanging a few inches above it, I let the duckweed go wild. No heater, it is in my heated workshop with 5 other tanks, The temp is a constant 70-72 degrees. It was stocked with about 25 angels I had raised from around dime size, most were about silver dollar size, just about to the point where I was going to start finding them new homes. Also a dozen L144 plecos from Jon, about a half dozen peppered cory cats and some guppies I started the tank with and never got around to moving out. The last additions to the tank were the cory cats in late October, they came from Petsmart (I know, they should have at least gotten a salt dip) but seemed VERY healthy. They spawned at least 3 times.

I had been doing 20g water changes every other week on this tank, I wasn't too worried about it because there was plenty of duckweed I was always thinning out. On the last regular water change on 12/20 I rinsed a new pack of purigen in the old tank water and put it in the Emperor filter. I took out as much duckweed as I had the patience to net with the intent on seeing how well the purigen maintained water quality, I had heard good things and thought I should give it a shot. On Christmas day during feeding I noticed a couple of the runt angels had some ich. Not my first rodeo, I knew I had to get ahead of it. I plugged in a heater to get the temp up around 85 and started going over options. I have Proform-C on hand for my koi pond that I usually treat at least once a year out of caution. I considered trying just salt but you always hear how so many of these things are salt resistant now, etc etc. I have treated new koi in small quarantine tanks before, so I am familiar with it. I planned on 3 doses over 3 days, then follow that with at least one more in the 5-7 day timeframe.

On 12/26 in the afternoon the temp was in the low 80's in the tank. I did a 20g water change, removed the carbon filters and added 100% polyester cotton (rinsed in old tank water) to the filter, added 10mL Proform-C. The regular dose is 1mL per 10g, as much as double with close monitoring. I put an air stone in the tank and kept an eye on them for a couple hours. Everything was fine, took the air stone out and went to bed. The next morning I had 1 dead angel, it was one of the runts, not a real surprise. That afternoon I repeated the process, 20g water change, same Proform-C dose. No air stone this time and I watched them closer. There was no gasping or distress, went to bed again. Day 3 Sunday 12/28 I had one more dead runt angel but everyone else seemed to be doing well, I fed all the tanks that morning, went to a family function in the afternoon and came back to do the third dose that evening. I did the same 20g water change and this time I mixed up the Proform-C dose, about 8mL with 1g of prazi in a container and shook it real well. I figured why not, if the ich were secondary to some kind of internal parasite that would knock it right out. I put a battery powered air stone on the tank and left it for the night. I figured it had about 6-8 hours left, I intended to run them down and put fresh ones in.

I wake up on Day 4, Monday 12/29, sicker than I've been in years. It is the worst stomach discomfort and chills, the mere thought of food makes bad things happen. I couldn't bring myself to eat or drink, and only left bed to go to the bathroom. That evening I spiked a 101.5 fever. Tuesday 12/30 I feel a little better and make it out to the workshop to take a look and feed. The tank is almost completely dead. What wasn't dead was almost there and I was in no shape to be sticking my arms in and moving around buckets. Guppies, however, seem fine. I netted out the dead, temp was at 82 which was lower than it had been before. Water test showed just a bit of ammonia and nitrite, not nearly what I expected given the scene. I gave it two capfuls of Prime and unplugged the heater. I've made it out of bed each of the last couple days to net the dead and give the tank another shot of Prime. Not one guppy has died, in fact they swim around like nothing happened and are even eating.

So there you have it, today I'm feeling much better, almost like a human again. Where did I go wrong? The heat, the prazi, should I have spaced the dosing out to every other day, did I give them something, did they give me something, are guppies the cockroaches of the aquarium world and can literally survive anything?

Second, how do I move forward? I'm concerned about contaminating my other tanks obviously, if it was contagious. The other tanks show no problem at this point. I share nets, buckets and siphons between them all, but haven't put anything in any other tank since this started. Should everything get a heavy bleaching and thorough rinse? How do I move forward with the 75g? Do frequent water changes and see if anything develops with the remaining guppies? Put in some fish from another tank and see what happens? Euthanize the guppies, drain the tank, discard the substrate and bleach everything?

[wsantia1]

Sorry to hear about your losses, but that tank was way overstocked and water changes of 20 gallons every other week was not nearly enough to maintain good water quality.  I don't know what you will set it back up with but if you go with Angles, 10 gallons per adult is recommended.  I overstock too but I am at about  5 gallons per adult and do two to three water changes of at least 30 percent every week. I am sure someone else will chime in with expert advice but good luck to you going forward.

[Mugwump]

Hi guys,
I lurk on here a lot but don't post much. I was hoping to get some creative criticism and any insight on a recent tank meltdown. Sorry for the wall of text, I just want to be as thorough as possible, if nothing else for my own thought process.

I have a 75g tank, black blasting sand substrate, Emperor 400, Daylight dual 48" shoplight hanging a few inches above it, I let the duckweed go wild. No heater, it is in my heated workshop with 5 other tanks, The temp is a constant 70-72 degrees. It was stocked with about 25 angels I had raised from around dime size, most were about silver dollar size, just about to the point where I was going to start finding them new homes. Also a dozen L144 plecos from Jon, about a half dozen peppered cory cats and some guppies I started the tank with and never got around to moving out. The last additions to the tank were the cory cats in late October, they came from Petsmart (I know, they should have at least gotten a salt dip) but seemed VERY healthy. They spawned at least 3 times.

#1....70-72 is too cold for the angels...but it reduces their metabolism...if any disease was present, it was lying almost dormant...when you raised the temps, it sprang to life...my gut says the cory's are the culprits as carriers...they weren't affected, the angel were susceptible to whatever they carried.

I had been doing 20g water changes every other week on this tank, I wasn't too worried about it because there was plenty of duckweed I was always thinning out. On the last regular water change on 12/20 I rinsed a new pack of purigen in the old tank water and put it in the Emperor filter. I took out as much duckweed as I had the patience to net with the intent on seeing how well the purigen maintained water quality, I had heard good things and thought I should give it a shot. On Christmas day during feeding I noticed a couple of the runt angels had some ich. Not my first rodeo, I knew I had to get ahead of it. I plugged in a heater to get the temp up around 85 and started going over options. I have Proform-C on hand for my koi pond that I usually treat at least once a year out of caution. I considered trying just salt but you always hear how so many of these things are salt resistant now, etc etc. I have treated new koi in small quarantine tanks before, so I am familiar with it. I planned on 3 doses over 3 days, then follow that with at least one more in the 5-7 day timeframe.

#2 like Willie said, not enough water being changed...for ich, they can't reproduce at 85-86 deg's, and can be killed off by 88deg temps....main cause of ich....the water got too cold....
Those 'med's' usually require big water changes between doses too....

On 12/26 in the afternoon the temp was in the low 80's in the tank. I did a 20g water change, removed the carbon filters and added 100% polyester cotton (rinsed in old tank water) to the filter, added 10mL Proform-C. The regular dose is 1mL per 10g, as much as double with close monitoring. I put an air stone in the tank and kept an eye on them for a couple hours. Everything was fine, took the air stone out and went to bed. The next morning I had 1 dead angel, it was one of the runts, not a real surprise. That afternoon I repeated the process, 20g water change, same Proform-C dose. No air stone this time and I watched them closer. There was no gasping or distress, went to bed again. Day 3 Sunday 12/28 I had one more dead runt angel but everyone else seemed to be doing well, I fed all the tanks that morning, went to a family function in the afternoon and came back to do the third dose that evening. I did the same 20g water change and this time I mixed up the Proform-C dose, about 8mL with 1g of prazi in a container and shook it real well. I figured why not, if the ich were secondary to some kind of internal parasite that would knock it right out. I put a battery powered air stone on the tank and left it for the night. I figured it had about 6-8 hours left, I intended to run them down and put fresh ones in.

#3 an air stone is not enough, plus the tank needs constant aeration...and stable heat...

I wake up on Day 4, Monday 12/29, sicker than I've been in years. It is the worst stomach discomfort and chills, the mere thought of food makes bad things happen. I couldn't bring myself to eat or drink, and only left bed to go to the bathroom. That evening I spiked a 101.5 fever. Tuesday 12/30 I feel a little better and make it out to the workshop to take a look and feed. The tank is almost completely dead. What wasn't dead was almost there and I was in no shape to be sticking my arms in and moving around buckets. Guppies, however, seem fine. I netted out the dead, temp was at 82 which was lower than it had been before. Water test showed just a bit of ammonia and nitrite, not nearly what I expected given the scene. I gave it two capfuls of Prime and unplugged the heater. I've made it out of bed each of the last couple days to net the dead and give the tank another shot of Prime. Not one guppy has died, in fact they swim around like nothing happened and are even eating.

#4...again the water temps were swinging...heater was unplugged....constant temps swings a no-no....

So there you have it, today I'm feeling much better, almost like a human again. Where did I go wrong? The heat, the prazi, should I have spaced the dosing out to every other day, did I give them something, did they give me something, are guppies the cockroaches of the aquarium world and can literally survive anything?

Second, how do I move forward? I'm concerned about contaminating my other tanks obviously, if it was contagious. The other tanks show no problem at this point. I share nets, buckets and siphons between them all, but haven't put anything in any other tank since this started. Should everything get a heavy bleaching and thorough rinse? How do I move forward with the 75g? Do frequent water changes and see if anything develops with the remaining guppies? Put in some fish from another tank and see what happens? Euthanize the guppies, drain the tank, discard the substrate and bleach everything?

Scrub the tank/HOB filter down good, and wipe out with a bleach solution...rinse well....clean/replace the gravel...get separate nets/buckets, etc for each of your tanks....fill the tank with tap water, add a heater, filter(s) set at about 88-89 deg's for at least 2 wks...to kill off and left over 'ich' remaining....turn off the heater.........drain the tank, vacuuming the gravel well......refill and seed with filter media from another tank, add heater set for 80-82..pop in  'Juda' fish..let it run and watch how they do.....check your parameters, if good...restock it.........

I'll think of something else, I'm sure...and others will surely chime in....really sorry to hear about both your lose ..and being ill...both suck big time....

[GraphicGr8s]

Ick is one of those things that are always present. Fish get it if they are stressed.
Ick has a life cycle. When it's in the fish you aren't going to kill it. Raising the temperature is to speed up the ick's life cycle and to get them out of the fish so you can kill them.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

http://www.colorship.net/ubpcprotosite1/treatich.html

[nix70c]

Right, which is why I treat my pond yearly with both Proform-C and Prazi, you can't kill all the nasties but you can keep the numbers in check and with healthy fish you rarely have a problem.

Thanks for the insight on this guys.

I have a follow-up question. It looks like it was a norovirus that got me. Not only is it very contagious but you can spread it up to 2 weeks after your symptoms end. Does anyone know if that is something that can affect aquatic life? I couldn't find a clear answer.

[Mugwump]

Ick is one of those things that are always present. Fish get it if they are stressed.
Ick has a life cycle. When it's in the fish you aren't going to kill it. Raising the temperature is to speed up the ick's life cycle and to get them out of the fish so you can kill them.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

http://www.colorship.net/ubpcprotosite1/treatich.html

No...it is NOT always present....with heat treatments, (without med's) ..it can die off, and be eradicated.....88 deg'a heat for for a minimum of 10 days gets it all....
of course ponds need to be treated...they can't be brought to that high of temp long enough to kill the 'ich' off.....

here's a exert from one of you links,,,,
""There is no "dormant" independent, long-term encysted life stage separate from a host fish for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This is useful to know. You will often hear to the contrary. Dr. Peter Burgess, who took Ichthyophthirius multifiliis as his Ph.D. subject at Plymouth University, mentioned among Ich "old wives' tales" that "It's present in all aquariums." "What utter rubbish" noted Dr. Burgess (in the November 2001 Practical Fishkeeping). Brits don't mince words.""

[b125killer]

Ick is usually easy to take care of, there's something else going on. It is possible for the angels to get sick and not effect the guppies. I lost a tank full of angels that had clown loaches in it. The loaches never missed a bet. They kept on doing there thing. Do you have any pics?
I would do as mug says. Replace the gravel /sand. It's  realy not worth trying to clean it. Also put any remaining fish in a q.t. tank. You don't want to spread around what it is. And make sure you get each tank there own equipment. It really is worth it to not spread around diseases. Sorry about your loss. And i hope you feel better.

[GraphicGr8s]

Ick is one of those things that are always present. Fish get it if they are stressed.
Ick has a life cycle. When it's in the fish you aren't going to kill it. Raising the temperature is to speed up the ick's life cycle and to get them out of the fish so you can kill them.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

http://www.colorship.net/ubpcprotosite1/treatich.html

No...it is NOT always present....with heat treatments, (without med's) ..it can die off, and be eradicated.....88 deg'a heat for for a minimum of 10 days gets it all....
of course ponds need to be treated...they can't be brought to that high of temp long enough to kill the 'ich' off.....

here's a exert from one of you links,,,,
""There is no "dormant" independent, long-term encysted life stage separate from a host fish for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This is useful to know. You will often hear to the contrary. Dr. Peter Burgess, who took Ichthyophthirius multifiliis as his Ph.D. subject at Plymouth University, mentioned among Ich "old wives' tales" that "It's present in all aquariums." "What utter rubbish" noted Dr. Burgess (in the November 2001 Practical Fishkeeping). Brits don't mince words.""

There are also articles that say the contrary.

If it is not ever present then how does a stable tank get it? By stable I mean no additions for months/years.

[Mugwump]

"If it is not ever present then how does a stable tank get it? By stable I mean no additions for months/years."

...only by having something carry it, when it is introduced into that tank....

[GraphicGr8s]

"If it is not ever present then how does a stable tank get it? By stable I mean no additions for months/years."

...only by having something carry it, when it is introduced into that tank....

If no additions are made then how does a tank get ich? It does happen. Where are the cysts coming from?

[LizStreithorst]

I'm not so sure about ich always being present.  I've never had ich even when my fish caught everything else in the book while they were fighting that dread herpes virus I had.

[Mugwump]

"If it is not ever present then how does a stable tank get it? By stable I mean no additions for months/years."

...only by having something carry it, when it is introduced into that tank....

If no additions are made then how does a tank get ich? It does happen. Where are the cysts coming from?

If the tank doesn't have fish, and was set up from scratch everything new....there is no ich....the ich comes from the introductions of 'hosts'     live fish....it doesn't just appear like you bought it with the tank....

[GraphicGr8s]

No Jon I meant it's in the water we use. How does a tank that has had no additions for 6 months get ich?

[BillT]

Mug is right about this.
Ich is an obligate pathogen.
It needs to find a new host within a limited time after it has left its host or it will just die. It can not make a living just hanging out in a tank with no host to infect.

Other pathogens like mycobacteria or velvet or vibrio can reproduce in a aquarium without a host, but not ich.

Not all fish species will be equally susceptible to being infected on killed by a particular pathogen.

One possible way to have it pop up in a tank would be if it a long term series of infections had occurred in fish that are somewhat resistant to it. This however would involve successive rounds of infection which presents problems for this line of thought:
1) more susceptible species would be expected to get infected rather than the more resistant ones,
2) fish develop immunity to ich and after a while should not b susceptible to reinfection, thus breaking the cycle.

I would consider this situation unlikely to continue for more than a month without the ich infection becoming noticed.


Another (and more likely) way to have ich pop up (with out introductions) is to have an inadvertent transfer from some contaminated source. Excluding fish and plants (no introductions) leaves a lot of possible sources, such as: a splash of water from an infected tank, using a wet net, heater or any other piece of equipment that has touched an infected fish or was used in an infected tank, or having dampness on your hands from a source of infections and then contacting the water in a tank. Another possibility would be reusing a bag that have contacted infected fish.

I have read, but not from a reliable source, that the ich parasite can not stand drying out. No the other hand I have hear it contradicted. It this is true that whatever transfers it would have to at least be damp, but it does not have to be dripping wet.

In a lab these kinds of transfers would be considered bad technique, but it would not be very surprising in a hobbyist, store, or fish farm type of place.


norovirus
Interesting note; first discovered in an infection in Norwalk, Ohio, thus the name.
Probably not transmissible to or from fish. Humans can be infected with some viruses from birds, swine, camels, bats, monkeys and probably other things, but the farther from humans (evolutionarially speaking) the less likely it is that a virus could infect humans.

It is a highly contagious virus (therefore not treatable with antibiotics). One case in Europe had 14 people getting infected from each initial infection. There is a weak immunity (strain specific) lasting about 6 months, but it make not work on other strains.

Bleach (1.5-7.5%) disinfects things of norovirus. Alcohol does not work well. Heat is supposed to work also (temperature unspecified but maybe a clothes dryer).

Infections are thought to be from person to person contact, through aerosols (coughing, sneezes), contaminated food or water. Shellfish have been sited as a source of food, probably due to contamination by food handlers.

[nix70c]

Thanks for the lively debate guys. As much as i would like to keep the tank running with the handful of guppies to see what if anything happens, I have no idea what I would do with several hundred questionable fry in a few weeks time. I think I will set them up in a 10g for now with a seeded sponge filter, tear down the 75g and follow Jon's instructions. It was my favorite tank. It started as an angel grow-out, then some little L144s until they were big enough for their own places and the cory cats were an afterthought to clean up the leftovers. I just need to come up with a more efficient way of changing water out there before i dive back in.

Good to hear this virus shouldnt be contagious to the fish. I read it can be contracted through common surfaces. I work from home and tracking back the 24-48 hours prior to onset I think I picked this up at Target last weekend. Of course they were out of wipes for the carts at the front door. We did eat at the neihhborhood mexican place but I'm a vegetarian and we both had similar dishes, she didn't get sick until this evening after we spent Thursday bumming around the house. Fingers crossed none of the fur babies in the house don't get sick.