The relationship of Angelfish eggs and Hard water

[Ron Sower]

Okay..maybe someone can 'splain this to me....!

I'm beginning to recognize something here from one or more of the threads.  Angelfish eggs need more acidic water than alkaline water to be fertilized.  Have I got this right?  I'm surmising that the hardness factor affects the permeability of the egg cell's membrane; maybe the sperm's too.

The reason I want to know is that before we moved to our present home in Federal Way with a different water supply, we lived in Tacoma and I had angels that spawned all the time. Aron can attest to this...he even got some of my stock a couple years ago.  At that time I had not checked the water parameters often but knew the water was soft and around 6.8 - neutral.

Everyone in the club is always referring to the soft & slightly acid water in Seattle. So it obviously was carrying over to other nearby areas. The topography around here is pretty much granite with glacial till overlay.

So when I tested the water coming into our tap, and also in my tanks, it tested hard and alkaline.  Checking into the website of our water supplier, I learned that Ca in some form is added to our tapwater to help reduce leaching of copper and other metals from the pipes.

Now I'm wondering if this has been the reason my GBR spawns have turned white and been picked off by the parents.

Also, I'm thinking about getting some of Aron's & Lori's angels this weekend at our swap meet. If so then I probably shouldn't expect the same spawning/breeding success as I had at my other location, right?!!!! At least without going to the trouble of more water quality management.

Your thoughts on all of this please.

Gratefully,
Ron

[LizStreithorst]

I don't know much about water, but I know some...Do you know your kH and your TDS?  If you find out I might could give you my shot at an answer. 

[Ron Sower]

I don't know much about water, but I know some...Do you know your kH and your TDS?  If you find out I might could give you my shot at an answer.

Actually, no, I don't. I guess I'm going to have to get more involved with water testing and equipment.

[Mugwump]

Your assumptions are basically correct. Angels come from soft acid water, and do best in it, when transplanted from the wild to out tanks. However the generations of hobby bred angels has made them much more adaptable to our water parameters. While a mid to upper 6 PH can be ideal, angels breed very well in the upper 7 PH range....dependent on the angel line(s) previous water exposure. I've found a median range towards neutral PH (7.0-7.2) works very well. It's fairly simple to blend R/O and tap..to get this range, if you're water is harder. It's not difficult to keep a pair tank, or two, at desired numbers, and the resulting fry can be grown in good tap water. Lots of Discus breeders use a blend for the pair tank, then fry raise in different/regular water. ....blending R/O will lower your TDS's too....

IMHO, yep the hard water affected the GBR spawn....

[Ron Sower]

Thanks Mugs and Liz.

Aron what is your hardness and pH your angels are breeding in?  Rams?

[LizStreithorst]

Your assumptions are basically correct. Angels come from soft acid water, and do best in it, when transplanted from the wild to out tanks. However the generations of hobby bred angels has made them much more adaptable to our water parameters. While a mid to upper 6 PH can be ideal, angels breed very well in the upper 7 PH range....dependent on the angel line(s) previous water exposure. I've found a median range towards neutral PH (7.0-7.2) works very well. It's fairly simple to blend R/O and tap..to get this range, if you're water is harder. It's not difficult to keep a pair tank, or two, at desired numbers, and the resulting fry can be grown in good tap water. Lots of Discus breeders use a blend for the pair tank, then fry raise in different/regular water. ....blending R/O will lower your TDS's too....

IMHO, yep the hard water affected the GBR spawn....

I have to disagree, Mug,  Unless Angles are different from Discus, pH isn't the important factor.  The important factor is the kH and TDS.

[PaulineMi]

Yep....a high TDS and the eggs will not hatch.  Before I got my RO unit I used distilled water to get the eggs to hatch. Once they became free swimmers tap water was slowly added until they were in straight tap. 

We have well water with a TDS of over 350.

[Mugwump]

Your assumptions are basically correct. Angels come from soft acid water, and do best in it, when transplanted from the wild to out tanks. However the generations of hobby bred angels has made them much more adaptable to our water parameters. While a mid to upper 6 PH can be ideal, angels breed very well in the upper 7 PH range....dependent on the angel line(s) previous water exposure. I've found a median range towards neutral PH (7.0-7.2) works very well. It's fairly simple to blend R/O and tap..to get this range, if you're water is harder. It's not difficult to keep a pair tank, or two, at desired numbers, and the resulting fry can be grown in good tap water. Lots of Discus breeders use a blend for the pair tank, then fry raise in different/regular water. ....blending R/O will lower your TDS's too....

IMHO, yep the hard water affected the GBR spawn....

I have to disagree, Mug,  Unless Angles are different from Discus, pH isn't the important factor.  The important factor is the kH and TDS.

It's actually a bit of all of them...the KH (calcium/magnesium) is more a measure of your waters buffering capacity being able to keep your PH from going too low, or bouncing...if your PH is steady, then you don't need to worry about it....that's why I mentioned that...Angels just like a steady PH...as I guess Discus do too....? That's why I mentioned a R/O blend to reduce the TDS's, which usually solves the problem. if they are high to begin with....??

Ron said the city water folks added calcium to their water to reduce other metals in the water, there I think that you have a good point. perhaps a GH test will expose missing elements that the fish need?..but not necessarily which one...??any ideas there

[P4Angels]

Thanks Mugs and Liz.

Aron what is your hardness and pH your angels are breeding in?  Rams?

To be honest Ron I don't track it.  Give them a clean involvement, ckean water and good food and it about it... I can tell you that we had some of the worst water ever in Belle Plaine, IA hard and full of sediments and we still got angels to breed...


Just take it from me that the water we have out here is the best around for breeding Angels, Discus and Rams.

[Mugwump]

Thanks Mugs and Liz.

Aron what is your hardness and pH your angels are breeding in?  Rams?

To be honest Ron I don't track it.  Give them a clean involvement, ckean water and good food and it about it... I can tell you that we had some of the worst water ever in Belle Plaine, IA hard and full of sediments and we still got angels to breed...


Just take it from me that the water we have out here is the best around for breeding Angels, Discus and Rams.

You're correct Aron, keep your PH steady....Ron, just thought....test your water out of the tap for PH, then aerate a bucket full for 24hrs, to degas, then test it for PH again....with all the calcium added, it might be making your water more alkaline (higher PH)....what are you tank PH's...any different from tap or aged?....

[P4Angels2]

We used to test it all the time but the water here in WA is so good that anymore we don't test we don't use a TDS meter on it...Like Aron said we make sure they have good clean tanks and good food to feed the fish and they amaze us with wonderful batches of awesome fry!!

[Mugwump]

We used to test it all the time but the water here in WA is so good that anymore we don't test we don't use a TDS meter on it...Like Aron said we make sure they have good clean tanks and good food to feed the fish and they amaze us with wonderful batches of awesome fry!!

Remember tho, the issue is that Ron's Washington water is different from yours. Why not take your readings so he can compare it to what he has now.

[Ron Sower]

Thanks for the input folks!  Aron, you're like I am...not really testing the water quality much. But the difference is, you do much better at water change regularly than I...!

I'm going to work with some distilled water and see what may happen with the next spawn.

Thanks again, all!

[Mugwump]

Good luck, Ron...

[LizStreithorst]

RO Right is good for raising gH.  It has none of the carbonates in it so it's doesn't raise kH.  I knew a very highly thought of breeder named Cary Strong who bred in a pH in the 8's.  He didn't even have to age his water because his pH didn't fluctuate after aging.  I can't breed at 7.2.  I have 0 gH and 4.5 kH.