I don't want to say this on my Discus forum right now, so I will say it here. The new big thing in Discus is artificial raising of fry.. Someone has figured out a way to do it that is not as much work as it used to be.
It's not like we don't already have enough people cranking out junk. Soon we will have more of them. It is driving nuts!
Sorry :-[
Oh to me that would take all the fun out of it. The whole reason I ever wanted discus was how well they care for the babies. Me and hubby have watched I don't even know how many videos of people's discus pairs with their fry.
That's the way I feel. It takes away from the most wonderful thing about the fish. I can see it being done in the hands of a master breeder, but for every Discus person in the States to be able to do it will only bring harm. We will see the results over the next few years. I'm hoping that this is nothing but a silly fad.
Just what we all need, an abundance of of poor quality Discus ::)
You have breeding pairs don't you? I was thinking I've read that and you got to see it in your own tank! Maybe it will be a fad.
I don't believe enough is known about Discus genetics to make mass artificial hatching viable. Some breeders, like Liz says, will crank out the fry...but the first signs of overuse of this technique will be quality....size, qualty, vigor will be diminished and true discus hobbyists will notice it in a heart beat. I can tell angels from a good breeder vs a 'sport' breeder easily.....size/shape/vigor by a certain age reflect it....just breeding(manufacturing) fry to market without the proper techniques such as out crossing,etc..will soon crap a line/breeder out...the fry/product will reflect it too...
That's why I promote folks to seek good breeders for their hatchery stock,
It will all work out. It always does. Quality will suffer for a while and many prospective Discus keepers who want Discus cheap will get their wish. I shouldn't let it bother me.
I hear yah!!! We have the same problem with angels. Until everyone is educated there is no stopping it.
How do they artificial raise the fry? If you pull a angelfish spawn and put them in a different tank isn't that artificially raising them?
Seems to me that the problems of poor genetic quality and the artificial raising of fry are different issues.
Poor quality stock due to poor breeding decisions will affect the fish's genetics.
The artificial raising of a spawn (if done well) could result in fish with either good or poor genetics depending on the genetics of the fish bred, unless the technique of artificial raising of the fry results in messed up fish due to poor nutrition, water quality, or perhaps something else.
Think 'puppy mills'........overbreeding of random/selected genetics and then line breeding good/bad until the line implodes into rubbish...not all hobbyists will do this but an unwary or uneducated person could knowingly/unknowingly produce low qualty stock and pass it on to...???
to the detriment of the genotype......extreme yes, but if repeated again and again, it's bad news...
It's a little different with Discus. Discus babies can't survive their first several days without eating the slime that their parents produce on their bodies. Their mouths are too tiny for even the smallest live food. With artificial people would raise them in bowls and feed them an egg yoke mix of some kind. Keeping water quality high was a huge issue. This new way, it's easier.
I suppose it doesn't matter. Judging by the gazillions of cones Barb sells, everyone and his brother is already breeding Discus. Funny, very few of them offer fry for sale. I have a feeling that the only one who will make money from this new invention is the guy who invented it.
True Liz. For the number of cones I have sold in the last 3 years you would think that even Walmart would be offering Discus in their tanks next to feeder goldfish! Should be so many discus being produced...but we don't see/hear about that many do we?
Barb
Many people want to spawn their fish, but few want to put forth the effort required to raise quality fry. Thankfully, with most fish, it's a little more involved than just putting male & female together. IMO this is what keeps fish breeding from the 'puppy mill' status - any idiot can breed dogs, and that's the problem.
Dennis
Very well said, Dennis.
I could really go on a rant about puppy mills back yard breeders. I'm a groomer. Oh the abominations I see.
I guess my 'puppy mill' comment was stretching it a bit....but it did get my opinion on it out....I don't like gargage breeders of anything....
I love watching the parents tend to their fry...I just wish that they wouldn't want to eat them!! I am not wanting to be a (discus fry mill) I would just like to have the little one's to watch as they grow!!
Quote from: P4Angels2 on October 28, 2012, 02:21:55 PM
I love watching the parents tend to their fry...I just wish that they wouldn't want to eat them!! I am not wanting to be a (discus fry mill) I would just like to have the little one's to watch as they grow!!
Au contraire......you're a responsible breeder wanting results, of course....much different
Try caging the eggs until the fry swim form the cage. This generally does the trick for new parents. The way you do it is put a peice of gutter guard over the cone. You want the parents to be close, but not too close. They should be able to fan the eggs but not be so close that they can eat them.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on October 28, 2012, 02:58:05 PM
Try caging the eggs until the fry swim form the cage. This generally does the trick for new parents. The way you do it is put a peice of gutter guard over the cone. You want the parents to be close, but not too close. They should be able to fan the eggs but not be so close that they can eat them.
I've seen that Liz...and yes it works.....good call..
I artificially raised Discus in 1992. The secret was to use a bakers egg yolk that had been vapor dried at high pressure and low temperature to form a small fat particle that would not coagulate and form into a mass. Most of this was done using bowl batches at that time and you had to place the Discus fry into the bowls and remove them afterwards. You needed to do this every four hours for a great result. It is my understanding that for the most part the process is the same today, the fry concentrates may have been improved but the four hour sequence still is required. The modern method also uses a decoy adult which has a surface that supports the pasting of the yolk mixture to it. The fry eat from the sides of the decoy and this may be done in tank. The genetics are not damaged by this as the adults are still required to spawn and you need nice stock to get a good result. The reason this is being done is because many of the newest strains are fetching $150 for a 2 inch diameter fish. This makes each one precious and so a quality fry rising method is needed. This method also keeps the adult fish from suffering the scarring that can occur when letting the fry feed. This adds to the value of mated pairs as they are cleaner in appearance. While I don't really promote the methods because parent raising for me was easier, I can understand why commercial operations would want to adapt to this type of situation.
Much of my background is in lab fish. Even in labs, where you would think they would know better, people will often end up making genetically poor inbred lines. It is possible to make good inbred lines, but it takes more time, effort, and fish tanks than many people want to deal with. Many researchers are more interested in their short term results of getting their experiments done than in generating a robust line that will last a long time.
In addition, in labs you want real genetic lines, which are genetically closed, meaning that no new genetics are added to the line so that it will be the same for other people who will want to use it later for an experiment. One of the main zebrafish lab lines has been bred in this way for probably 80 or 90 generations now. It hasa clutch sizes of 100-200 eggs while some good fish farm fish I have had could produce 500 eggs per spawning. Inevitably this kind of closed breeding scheme leads to inbreeding, but the inbreeding can be controlled to lessen its negative impact. An example would be the many completely inbred mouse lines that exist.