Blacks, again....

[Mugwump]

I've separated another pair of the Turq's...she's 'tubby' and tube's down now. We'll see if they're as good at raising as the siblings???....That'd be nice...

[Frank The Plumber]

any fry from the partial and non expressing half blacks yet?

The Hb turqs are hard to read. So far I still don't have anything I would say is definitive.

I have some peas to 4 week olds that have some real promise to them from my partials. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the colors that pop.

[Mugwump]

any fry from the partial and non expressing half blacks yet?

The Hb turqs are hard to read. So far I still don't have anything I would say is definitive.

I have some peas to 4 week olds that have some real promise to them from my partials. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the colors that pop.

Yep, both the parents(both pair) definately show a black band around the tail area..some of the fry have dark rear ends too..but still a little small to tell how much.....and a 'gold'......LOL

[Frank The Plumber]

Pb/Pb S/S Hb/Hb V/V ------ A/A Pb/Pb S/S Hb/Hb V/V------- A/A Pb/Pb +/+ Hb/Hb V/V------- Pb/Pb +/+ Hb/Hb V/V------Pb/Pb +/+ Hb/Hb S/- V/V---------Visible from Partials and nons.

,In think there are nearly 90 genotypes possible. Original cross was A/A Pb/Pb HB/- g/- Standard fin/st f +/+ sire to +/+ Hb/Hb S/S V/V

+/+ =silver?

[Mugwump]

Pb/Pb S/S Hb/Hb V/V ------ A/A Pb/Pb S/S Hb/Hb V/V------- A/A Pb/Pb +/+ Hb/Hb V/V------- Pb/Pb +/+ Hb/Hb V/V------Pb/Pb +/+ Hb/Hb S/- V/V---------Visible from Partials and nons.

,In think there are nearly 90 genotypes possible. Original cross was A/A Pb/Pb HB/- g/- Standard fin/st f +/+ sire to +/+ Hb/Hb S/S V/V

+/+ =silver?

Yep, silver...Hb/Hb pb/pb V/V(PB half black super veils)....cool....now think Pinoy too.... Pinoy half black veils/super veils....sweet

[Frank The Plumber]

Pinoy paraiba half black superveils. Question will be, does the guanine color the half black or does it stand as black?

Albino pinoy paraiba half black superveils. Question will be, how does Hb differentiate itself on the fish? There will be no black. There will be an absense, there may be an absense of coloration along a line denoting the Hb. I should know a lot more in 4 to 6 weeks.  Some of the fish in this first batch I really don't care if they turn or not. The color of just the non Hb's in them is very nice.

[Mugwump]

Question is...does the HB gene carry it's own black???.....mull that one over a bit...

[Frank The Plumber]

As of yet it has not. Though there may be a different effect per the various forms of albinism possible, albinism thus far has caused half black to be an absence of black pigmentation on an albinid specimen. In conferring with Mario ( Madetto ) he had experienced this same expression of half lack upon an albino, a place where there was a missing patch of coloration. The capacity for influence upon this area of non melanistic expression will be the exciting area to explore. If our base coloration is of a certain tone and our focused trait coloration is another we may still be able to have an albino with a color on the front and a stripe of differentiation at the rear.

[Mugwump]

I wonder if Mario raised those Albino/HB's with reduced light? He did his regular HB's that way. If so, will that linger on in genes from his lines...the responsiveness to light/no light??..The HB's that he started with must have been weak gene'd too...the carry-over effect??...I know that most folks that don't need to do that for expression.....either they have the 'stronger' gene..or not....have you considered introducing another/different HB line into yours...say Asian or European??

[Frank The Plumber]

I never had a problem with light and the Hb line I have expressing. I do nothing to the Hb blushers and they pop at around day 60 or so. Half black responds to stress or light the same as smokey or chocolate does, it fades for the moment. To sell Half blacks during a high stress time you need to calm them, by keeping them in the dark. This keeps your bars defined and the critics happy.

[Mugwump]

I could have sworn that he told me that he raised them in natural light, no lamp, to get expression....??...still, have you thought about an Asian or European cross?? Their lines seem stronger for HB's..

[Frank The Plumber]

He may have done that but it does not seem necessary. One of the primary problems with Half black angels is a proliferation of a trait that hinders half black expression in fish that carry two doses of half black and should express. Another trait occupies the location and keeps two doses from being present, or enables a chemical blocker. One of the primary problems with Hb fish is that this trait exists. This trait is not readily apparent. Being not readily apparent this trait is not understood well.

A fish that has two doses of Hb should express, much like any other trait requiring two doses to express. The only reason it would not is due to a blocker, a part of trait code not Hb on the location. In a case where a fish technically should be Hb and is not this fish should not be used for breeding purposes as it has the blocker gene in it's code. Technically these fish should be removed from the brood stocks. A partial expressing fish would not be a non expressing fish. A partially expressing fish has a chemical availability issue or an issue in how the Hb itself chose to express, these fish will at least have a marking on them denoting that the Hb locations have been occupied by Hb. In the other case there is a missing Hb location due to a blocker or a chemical blocker on the location. In the case of the blocked location fish the progeny of two fish with a blocked location will most likely produce Hb fish along the lines of how this blocker gene is dosed. That is why there are so many poorly expressing lines. Using a fish that has no expression yet should be expressing to create Hb lines reinforces the gene into that lines stock. Using the incomplete expresser is not ideal either but can be worked through. Ideally the Partially expressing stock should be weened from the line stocks and the expressing Hb stock used. I am not certain but I think I see expressing fish in my partials at 40 days. I see Pb/Pb and Pb/Pb S/S. I see shadowing on the rear of many fish but I want to see a definitive line before I get excited.

The situation regarding out crossing represents the failure point of Half black lines. Because the Half black gene is prone to this blocker it is inbred severely when a line has any type of clue as to having less of it. Using our current form of line breeding we tend to use our existing stock burnt to a nub genetically and seek a fresh partner to donate vigor to the line. Considering all lines are burnt to a nub this is difficult. And, considering that there is a blocker we have a hard time seeing we most usually end up with a line mate that has blockers in it's codex. Most often an out cross depletes a HB line in it's expression capacity. The breeder tends to be short of proper time to reinvigorate the line.

There is a solution to this dilemma. I have it well detailed and carefully planned. The process of creating what I wish to create will take many patient years. Proper prolific and prominent Hb strains.

[Mugwump]

The fact that he shouldn't have to was my point. Obviously there's weaker genes involved because, as you've stated, they should be able to exist or co-exist without problems. I asked if you'd considered out crossing to Asian/European strains because they might have a stronger gene pool to work with....it'd boost your stock, and shorten the time needed for isolation of the 'good' gene that's needed for a viable stronger line(s). The strains available here are  deleterious at best.....

[Frank The Plumber]

What he did or had to do becomes a non issue because I have not had to do what he was doing.

Where he was and or left the fish at the end of his journey with them is not where I am going with them.

If you perform hocus pocus to achieve your results you commit to hocus pocus ever after.

Magic has not been required.

Looking at the possible sources for an outcross to influence the expression of Hb we see a short list of sources. I have previous familiarity with all of them. The lines with the least abuse will be those that are pure and true breeding in the other traits that express. The older and cleaner the Hb line the better. Lines having uncontrolled or untraceable forms of Pb within them are suspect of having been worked in the wrong direction or poorly. Lines having impartial expression or non expressing lines ask you many questions, each of which you will have to answer through breeding. Most answers no so good.

[Mugwump]

What he did or had to do becomes a non issue because I have not had to do what he was doing.

Where he was and or left the fish at the end of his journey with them is not where I am going with them.

If you perform hocus pocus to achieve your results you commit to hocus pocus ever after.

Magic has not been required.

Looking at the possible sources for an outcross to influence the expression of Hb we see a short list of sources. I have previous familiarity with all of them. The lines with the least abuse will be those that are pure and true breeding in the other traits that express. The older and cleaner the Hb line the better. Lines having uncontrolled or untraceable forms of Pb within them are suspect of having been worked in the wrong direction or poorly. Lines having impartial expression or non expressing lines ask you many questions, each of which you will have to answer through breeding. Most answers no so good.

"Looking at the possible sources for an outcross to influence the expression of Hb we see a short list of sources. I have previous familiarity with all of them."

Please elaborate, sources?..where?......and, so you're ruling out the foreign sources??...