Author Topic: My half black project  (Read 1127 times)

LizStreithorst

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My half black project
« on: November 19, 2017, 05:42:19 PM »
Somehow I managed to make tank space to separate my good pair of half blacks to a 60 wide love nest amd a nice pair of Blue Silver pearl scales to a 29 gallon love nest.  The blue silvers are wanting to spawn and the Half Blacks spawn at every opportunity.  I have taken the first step in a long journey to making half black blue pearl scales.  I will produce a ton of fish with little apparent value along the way.

It's a blast having the some of the Angelfish world  beating my door down for half blacks but the pair is so prolific that I will saturate the market with them and that will be a bummer.  It will be for more satisfying in the long run to make something that nobody else has made.

Mug, can you tell me what what my end product will look like in Greek?  I think it something akin to HB/HB  xx/xx ps/ps but as you know I don't speak Greek well and when I try I speak it with an almost unintelligible accent.
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Mugwump

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 05:55:26 PM »
Somehow I managed to make tank space to separate my good pair of half blacks to a 60 wide love nest amd a nice pair of Blue Silver pearl scales to a 29 gallon love nest.  The blue silvers are wanting to spawn and the Half Blacks spawn at every opportunity.  I have taken the first step in a long journey to making half black blue pearl scales.  I will produce a ton of fish with little apparent value along the way.

It's a blast having the some of the Angelfish world  beating my door down for half blacks but the pair is so prolific that I will saturate the market with them and that will be a bummer.  It will be for more satisfying in the long run to make something that nobody else has made.

Mug, can you tell me what what my end product will look like in Greek?  I think it something akin to HB/HB  xx/xx ps/ps but as you know I don't speak Greek well and when I try I speak it with an almost unintelligible accent.

h/h pb/pb p/p
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

LizStreithorst

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 06:13:23 PM »
yes, of course, everything is recessive so should be written in small letters and used HB for h and ps for p and forgot totally about the pb.  Why is ++ never stated?  Doesn't ++ mean Silver in English?
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Mugwump

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 06:22:29 PM »
yes, of course, everything is recessive so should be written in small letters and used HB for h and ps for p and forgot totally about the pb.  Why is ++ never stated?  Doesn't ++ mean Silver in English?

....the +/+ is used for silver/wild....but not often anymore with so many just using it to strengthen their lines..

...you will tho see +/S..+/g..+/pb....etc ..all the time...
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

LizStreithorst

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 06:38:42 PM »
With Discus they say that if you put all the fancy strains of Discus together in perfect conditions and allowed them to breed at random you would end up  with a bunch of Turks.  With Angels would it be the same but you would end up with silvers?  All the beautiful wild Angels I see are silvers.
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Mugwump

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2017, 06:49:32 PM »
With Discus they say that if you put all the fancy strains of Discus together in perfect conditions and allowed them to breed at random you would end up  with a bunch of Turks.  With Angels would it be the same but you would end up with silvers?  All the beautiful wild Angels I see are silvers.

no......just a bunch of 'hets'......and by chance the regular genotypes....but if breeding at random...they would just fuel the cycle again...and again....

..the same with Discus....you can't end up with 'one thing' by openly breeding everything...
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

LizStreithorst

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2017, 07:50:18 PM »
I don't know why genetics is so over my head when I understand could might work for me on a visceral level.  No matter...

I will now ask you a big favor because I know how much typing it took you when I asked something like this once before.  Please wait to answer until you're in the mood.  Please tell me in Greek what my first cross between my half blacks and silver blue pearl scales will be and the percentages of each genotype.  I know I'm in for a long hard slog.  I'd like to have an idea of how long and hard a slog reaching my goal will be.
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Mugwump

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 05:17:02 AM »
I don't know why genetics is so over my head when I understand could might work for me on a visceral level.  No matter...

I will now ask you a big favor because I know how much typing it took you when I asked something like this once before.  Please wait to answer until you're in the mood.  Please tell me in Greek what my first cross between my half blacks and silver blue pearl scales will be and the percentages of each genotype.  I know I'm in for a long hard slog.  I'd like to have an idea of how long and hard a slog reaching my goal will be.

I'll look it over again when I'm awake.... ;)

h/h - Halfblack
pb/pb - p/p - Blue Silver Pearlscale

100.0%   +/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver

..........

+/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver
+/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver

6.25%   h/h - +/pb - +/p - Halfblack
3.125%   h/h - pb/pb - +/p - Blue Halfblack....***
6.25%   +/h - +/pb - p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125%   +/h - pb/pb - Blue Silver
3.125%   +/h - p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125%   h/h - +/pb - Halfblack
3.125%   +/p - Silver
1.5625%   h/h - Halfblack
12.5%   +/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver
3.125%   pb/pb - +/p - Blue Silver
6.25%   +/h - +/pb - Silver
3.125%   +/pb - Silver
1.5625%   p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125%   +/h - pb/pb - p/p - Blue Silver Pearlscale
1.5625%   +/+ - Silver
1.5625%   pb/pb - p/p - Blue Silver Pearlscale
1.5625%   h/h - p/p - Halfblack Pearlscale
3.125%   h/h - +/pb - p/p - Halfblack Pearlscale...***
6.25%   +/h - +/p - Silver
3.125%   +/h - Silver
6.25%   +/pb - +/p - Silver
6.25%   +/h - pb/pb - +/p - Blue Silver
3.125%   +/pb - p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125%   h/h - +/p - Halfblack
1.5625%   h/h - pb/pb - p/p - Blue Halfblack Pearlscale...***
1.5625%   pb/pb - Blue Silver
1.5625%   h/h - pb/pb - Blue Halfblack...***
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

waterboy

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 09:14:21 AM »
Good luck picking out the ones you want.  You almost would have to grow out the whole batch to differentiate between some of the different phenotypes, especially if some of the half-blacks didn't turn.  Here is a place that has a calculator you can play with.  Also gives a description of the various known genes. 

https://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=genetics_calculator

Learning the genetics is part of the fun of raising Angelfish for me.  There is possibly one new gene not described there, that is the Bulgarian Green gene.  From that list you can see why so few people have blue half-blacks.  If you think the half-blacks sell fast on Aquabid think how fast the Blue Half-Blacks would sell.  You would have to stand on the front porch with a shotgun to keep people away.
Dale

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Mugwump

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 10:28:22 AM »
..just click 'angelfish' here......the top five threads are genetics, etc.......
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

waterboy

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 02:40:08 PM »
Yes.  Good to review once in a while.  A punnet square is easy to do in your head for each locus, but multiple loci take the calculator to keep everything sorted out.

The biggest problem that I run into is telling which ones are which.  In your list above for example, you can't tell a h/h - +/pb - +/p - Halfblack from a h/h - +/pb - Halfblack without growing them up and doing test crosses.  Of course once you get some h/h - p/p - pb/pb Halfblacks you are all set as they will breed true because of the recessive genes.
Dale

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Mugwump

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 02:49:07 PM »
Yes.  Good to review once in a while.  A punnet square is easy to do in your head for each locus, but multiple loci take the calculator to keep everything sorted out.

The biggest problem that I run into is telling which ones are which.  In your list above for example, you can't tell a h/h - +/pb - +/p - Halfblack from a h/h - +/pb - Halfblack without growing them up and doing test crosses.  Of course once you get some h/h - p/p - pb/pb Halfblacks you are all set as they will breed true because of the recessive genes.

yup, that can be the tough part.....I put *** on the results that I figured might be best to select for.....a couple are obvious, but some will take a sharp eye.....those were best for crosses.. huh
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

LizStreithorst

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 03:27:12 PM »
I know that it will be a long hard slog and will involve a good bit of luck.  From the first generation I will only be able to select based on overall conformation.  Nobody will be interested in buying fry that are simply silvers although my LFS will buy some.  I'll end up doing the hard thing with most of them.  I wonder if I could put them in the blender and cook them up to use as dog an addition to the dog's kibble?

I still want to give it a go.  Thanks for your guidance, Muggers.
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LizStreithorst

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 03:26:27 PM »
The good half black pair spawned yesterday and are guarding a ton of eggs.  The silver pearl scale pair have been very stressed in their love nest since I moved them.  I don't know what's up with that.  They were pecking and cleaning and driving the other fish off when I moved them huh
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waterboy

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Re: My half black project
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 04:05:55 PM »
The silver pearl scale pair have been very stressed in their love nest since I moved them.  I don't know what's up with that.  They were pecking and cleaning and driving the other fish off when I moved them huh

I've noticed that too.  Some pairs will pair up, clean and defend, and when put in their own tank suddenly decide they hate each other.  And some pairs it doesn't bother at all, they will just go right ahead and continue spawning.  Never have figured out what makes the difference.  I now try to let them actually spawn before I move them, but that doesn't always happen.
Dale

I'm not afraid of work.  I can lay down right next to it and go to sleep.