Turq, and a Dark streaked ghost...

[Mugwump]

Female D/+ S/S Male D/+ +/S +/st..........laid a spawn in the 75 pair off tank....day two... lots of eggs left, and no casualties.....LOL.....Frank, the Turq is from you as a nickel+ size...the Male is from the Dark pair........she's a cracker jack, a good strong female....the male's no slouch either, he's keeping the others away, big time....interesting to watch...

[Frank The Plumber]

That Turqish streaker would be het half black. The fry will be 25% het for HB. Most likely that this is diluted out really far though into the half black nether regions. Might never see HB again. Should get a lot of nice black blush and DD from it though. If you put the Turq with a sibling you would get around 10 to 25% half black expressers. I think. I have a pair of Turqish streakers and have some 4 week olds. Hoping for some Hb blacks.

[Mugwump]

Interesting...I'm going to move the pair to their own tank. The other fry, from you, with the 'cast of thousands, for genes are about ready to start pairing too...fry between these pairs should pop some half black too...then...lots of possibilities....

[Frank The Plumber]

The other fish are incomplete expressing Half Blacks. Homozygous but not enough acid concentration to modify the inhibitors for half black.
The genetics on those are 1 dose hb, one dose a, one dose Pb, one dose blush. A cross between a Modetto Hb blush and a gibbs Pb/Pb A. In my opinion we should get 10% expressing from a straight cross of two incompletes.

The fry from that will have a greater capacity to concentrate the acid complex required to load the receptors of the Hb/Hb trait. I think 25 to 35% on the next generation.

You could bounce the incompletes into the turqs at this point but I would wait and get a generation going first or get fry going as F1 turq Hb  and also do a cross of turq to incomplete and track the genetics in your room.

I will have outcross stock to keep the lines going. I have sort of a plan in the works for half black lines.

[Mugwump]

The other fish are incomplete expressing Half Blacks. Homozygous but not enough acid concentration to modify the inhibitors for half black.
The genetics on those are 1 dose hb, one dose a, one dose Pb, one dose blush. A cross between a Modetto Hb blush and a gibbs Pb/Pb A. In my opinion we should get 10% expressing from a straight cross of two incompletes.

The fry from that will have a greater capacity to concentrate the acid complex required to load the receptors of the Hb/Hb trait. I think 25 to 35% on the next generation.

You could bounce the incompletes into the turqs at this point but I would wait and get a generation going first or get fry going as F1 turq Hb  and also do a cross of turq to incomplete and track the genetics in your room.

I will have outcross stock to keep the lines going. I have sort of a plan in the works for half black lines.

Yep, pretty much what I had in mind.....I'm not going to chase the HB, but it would be nice...
I'm going to be looking for the most viable and prevelant fry....anything else is gravy...If I find good half black stock else where, I'll likely cross in with mine and see if it has more strength..??if not...oh well....HB can be a pain, and you can go for years trying to nail it down with superior stock, only to have it stop for no apparent reason...the variables are spooky..I gave it a run a few years back(many) and got good results, then poof..ka ka.....go figure....LOL

[greydragon]

it would be neat to try to bring back the Half Blacks From way back in its line   lol

[Mugwump]

it would be neat to try to bring back the Half Blacks From way back in its line   lol

It's not an easy chore, the HB expression is notorious for having a mind of it's own...LOL...even tho you know your pairings genetically are capable...the results can be frustrating...I have never seen a pair have even close to 100% hb expression from a spawn....the genes are there, but the black butt doesn't come to dinner......some say darkness, some say water conditions, others say planted tanks....yada yada....

[Frank The Plumber]

The Hb trait is a capacity to load a reactor. Homozygous Hb is a fish that has a capacity to load a chemical into it's genetic chemistry that will allow a visual expression of HB. What the exact chemical is, how it is limited, how it interacts with other chemicals that compose the chemistry of the gene trait are a mystery. As we focus cross the fish to enhance the capacity to load the gene chemistry we seem to get to a failure point. A basket of apples holds just so many apples until the bottom blows out. Hb is the same. As you climb towards 100% expression you load this capacity. It seems the chemistry for HB is fatal in some way. 100% may be fatal. To out cross Hb results in such a dilution that the chemistry is lost to get a decent expression. The work involved is brutal, time consuming and tedious. To out cross to a fish that has no Hb to get a good shape or pattern or dilute the toxic effects of the chemistry load results in a complete rebuild of the line. Years later you might get some Hb again. To have multiple lines and track the percentage of Hb toxin load in them is my approach. In this way I hope to be able to out cross without rebuilding. I track the percentage of the trait and the capability to produce Hb stock. This way I surmise my fishes chemistry. A lot of tracking involved.

[Mugwump]

The Hb trait is a capacity to load a reactor. Homozygous Hb is a fish that has a capacity to load a chemical into it's genetic chemistry that will allow a visual expression of HB. What the exact chemical is, how it is limited, how it interacts with other chemicals that compose the chemistry of the gene trait are a mystery. As we focus cross the fish to enhance the capacity to load the gene chemistry we seem to get to a failure point. A basket of apples holds just so many apples until the bottom blows out. Hb is the same. As you climb towards 100% expression you load this capacity. It seems the chemistry for HB is fatal in some way. 100% may be fatal. To out cross Hb results in such a dilution that the chemistry is lost to get a decent expression. The work involved is brutal, time consuming and tedious. To out cross to a fish that has no Hb to get a good shape or pattern or dilute the toxic effects of the chemistry load results in a complete rebuild of the line. Years later you might get some Hb again. To have multiple lines and track the percentage of Hb toxin load in them is my approach. In this way I hope to be able to out cross without rebuilding. I track the percentage of the trait and the capability to produce Hb stock. This way I surmise my fishes chemistry. A lot of tracking involved.

Righto. Frank....a lot worse than chasing a good Koi line....you just keeping plugging. and crossing, counting and comparing...then do it all again....that's the fun of it all...searching for the mix that makes it all happen....