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More Sick Angels!

Started by b125killer, November 28, 2013, 03:56:20 PM

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BallAquatics

Quote from: b125killer on November 29, 2013, 08:56:29 PM
I dosed the KanaPlexs for 40 gallons and the Bifuran for 30 gallons.

Liz is correct in using the medications full strength.  It is commonly thought that an incomplete course of antibiotics or low doses can lead to resistance to that particular antibiotic by allowing the bacteria to make adaptive changes under less stringent conditions.

Dennis

Mugwump

Quote from: BallAquatics on November 30, 2013, 08:43:14 AM
Quote from: b125killer on November 29, 2013, 08:56:29 PM
I dosed the KanaPlexs for 40 gallons and the Bifuran for 30 gallons.

Liz is correct in using the medications full strength.  It is commonly thought that an incomplete course of antibiotics or low doses can lead to resistance to that particular antibiotic by allowing the bacteria to make adaptive changes under less stringent conditions.

Dennis

Yep, incomplete treatment is inadequate.

I'm still not convinced that med's were entirely necessary.
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

BallAquatics

Quote from: Mugwump on November 30, 2013, 08:47:06 AM
I'm still not convinced that med's were entirely necessary.

Nor am I, but I was hesitant to go there.   :(   

Dennis

b125killer

I tested my fry tank the other day and everything was good there. I haven't tested the source water I will do that later today. I know how some people feel about using med's. :-\  If it was any other tank I would just do the water changes and let nature take it's course. It's just these angels are special to me. I don't want to see them suffering like this. 
Scott

PaulineMi

It's so difficult to decide what to do when faced with this stuff.  You are doing the best you can for your fish as you obviously care about them.  I wish you success.
When you find people who not only tolerate your quirks but celebrate them with glad cries of "Me too!" be sure to cherish them. Because those weirdos are your tribe.  (Sweatpants & Coffee)

Your moron cup is full. Empty it.  (Author unknown)

BillT

I'm not sure about the particular antibiotics., but they may be affecting your biofilter bacteria. This could be the cause of elevated nitrites.
Depending on when the tests were done vs. when the sick fish were noticed and antibiotics used, elevated nitrites could be the result of the antibiotics and independent of the illness. Of course the nitrite should be fixed anyway.

I typically use antibiotics very rarely because of concern about the biofilters. I usually use salt/aragonite, temperature, water changes. I am now curious about the possibillty of keeping a big UV on hand to plug on a tank of sick fish to knockdown any bacteria floating around (minimal effect on the biofilter). This however would require an investment and would not affect those bacteria attached to the fish. Another darwback of UVs is that they will not be very effective on larger things likeflukes and worms or in water with a lot of tannins or particulates (which block the UV).

Another approach (not tried by me) is to change the water and net out the fish and dip them into an antibiotic solution for some relatively short period of time. A friend of mine does this with about 10x antibiotic solutions but for a few minutes. It could also be repeated.

BallAquatics

Quote from: b125killer on November 30, 2013, 11:26:25 AM
It's just these angels are special to me. I don't want to see them suffering like this.

I feel your pain Scott.  It's all just part of the learning curve and sometimes there is just no clear course of action.  We're all pulling for them to come through in good shape.

Dennis

Mugwump

Scott, get em well..that's all that counts. I feel for you too, sometimes in these situations..you're between a rock and a hard place...save pictures of progress, and do a log on every step that you take along the way....it'll be invaluable in the future...are they starting to look better????
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

b125killer

I did the water test before I added the meds. I have the powered filters off right now. I think the beneficial bacteria in the hot mag should be ok. I might of killed it on the sponge filters. I'm doinging big water changes still. They don't look any better but they don't look worse eather. I haven't lost one yet. I just hope they get better soon. The meds say to discontinue use after three days if there's no improvement. The furan said I could do a dip with that. But if it didn't work in the tank I'm not to sure what it would do as a dip. I'm thinking after the three days I'll just keep up on the water changes.
Scott

b125killer

I tested the water before I did there water change. The parameters haven't changed. I tested the tap water for nitrate that was at 0. I also used the full dose of both meds this time around. I'm hopping that I see some kind of change tomorrow.
Scott

LizStreithorst

Meds may not have been necessary but that red in the fins didn't look good to me.  Sometimes the problems that result from poor water quality cannot be resolved with water changes alone.  The fish become susceptible and get a bacterial infection.  I know that Angels are much more resilient than Discus and my experience is mostly with Discus.  If my fish looked like that I'd have medicated so that's what I advised.

How do the fish look today?
Always move forward. Never look back.

b125killer

I lost three of them. :'( I found two dead and one knocking on deaths door. I help him along :( I did a 50% water change and tested the water before the change. The good news Is the nitrate went down to 10ppm. the bad news is the ammonia is up to .50ppm and the nitrite is at 0. I guess it's going to have to cycle again. There was also the two big dead angels that I don't know when they died. that couldn't of helped anything. I guess it's lots of water changes and testing and see what happens.
Scott

Mugwump

Wow, that's sad Scott. You can come on down and we'll figure out what adults that I have to get you going again.
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

Barb

Really sorry to hear this Scott.  Keep that tank very clean and do large frequent water changes, as in daily, and hopefully the remaining angels will make it.  There are lots of discus these days with a similar disease going around.  Many fish are dying.  It may be a virus that leads to the bacterial and parasitic infections.  It is not only your fish.  Good luck!
Barb

wsantia1

Sorry to hear about your losses Scott.  I know how much you cared about those Angels.  Like Jon I also have some young adults that can help you out.
Willie

Too Many Fish. Not Enough Tanks.