More Sick Angels!

[Mugwump]

Huge WC are the best start.  The fish look clamped and miserable.  I see the red especially around the pectoral.  I may be paranoid but I'd want to have the correct meds on hand in case WC doesn't work.

I've seen two Angel guys on.  Neither has posted.  I guess neither of them have ever had sick fish.

Clean water cures most ills......keeping clean water usually prevents most ills. If you practice good quarantine habits, that should rule out the other issues. 

[wsantia1]

Sorry to hear about your fish Scott.  I am a novice when it comes to angel illnesses.  I usually hit the water changes hard and used the Kanamycin.  Sometimes I would do the metro flake from angels plus if I thought it was a non bacterial situation.  That being said I have had several angel losses throughout the year so I really hope yours get better.

[b125killer]

Thanks Guys, I have turned down there heat. I keep there temps at 79. I'm going to put it to the low 70s. I know how important huge water changes are. I will do a 50% to 75% water change tomorrow. and keep up with 50% until they get better. If I don't see improvment in a few days I'll look for the  Kanamycin and Furan. I know it's hard to diagnose on line. I was already thinking that it's bacterial Just wasn't sure. Yes Liz there fins are clamped and they look miserable. you can see that the first pic real good. I'll be upset if that one doesn't make it. that's one of the first angels that I breed. I'm a novice too when it comes to angel illnesses and breeding for that. I also have had several losses but I think alot of that was I didn't know what to do. A lot of the time when I see a sick fish I just euthanasia it. I haven't had much luck curing fish. It's just that all the angels in that tank are sick. I have had most of them for a long time. some I have breed myself and I'm proud of them. there my special angels. I will try and cure them. I'm just not holding out much hope.   

[Mugwump]

Just a thought....1) keep the temp about 75, or so...2) if the fins are damaged, sounds like an ammonia spike, or shot of chlorine??..lots of clean water will help a bunch....careful with the temp/ph swings..I wonder too if the purigen did too good a job and caused the mini-cycle??? ie starved the sponges??...just tossing out thoughts..

[BallAquatics]

Clean water cures most ills......keeping clean water usually prevents most ills.

I'm with Jon on this.  I'd change as much water as I could on a daily basis for a while and see if they don't get better.  I noticed you said you had 4 filters on this tank...  no amount of filtration will take the place of regular large water changes.

Here's hoping your fish all pull through!

Dennis

[PaulineMi]

I hope your angels pull through.  One other thought....if you don't age your water watch out for the gas that accumulates in the hot water tank this time of year.  The tank runs more often in cold weather and the resulting gaseous microbubbles affect the fish the same way "the bends" affect divers.

[wsantia1]

if you don't age your water watch out for the gas that accumulates in the hot water tank this time of year.  The tank runs more often in cold weather and the resulting gaseous microbubbles affect the fish the same way "the bends" affect divers.

I never knew that Pauline.  Thanks for that info.

[LizStreithorst]

If you are doing massive WCs age your water if you can.  All the CO2 gasses off when the water has a bubbler in it for 24 hours.  With the gassing off of the CO2 the pH of the water is the same as the pH of the water in your tanks.

[b125killer]

I have the temps at 76 right now. I did a water change last night. unfortunately I can only do 20 gallons of aged water right now. I'm going to look for a bigger container today. I use API Stress Coat Plus when I have to use tap water. but I'm sure it wouldn't do anything for gaseous microbubbles. I will test the water before I change it today and post the results. I didn't think the purigen would of caused this much trouble. I guess if it isn't broke I shouldn't of messed with it.  

[Mugwump]

It shouldn't Scott....I was just looking for a reasons for it to spike, if that was the issue???

[BillT]

I hope your angels pull through.  One other thought....if you don't age your water watch out for the gas that accumulates in the hot water tank this time of year.  The tank runs more often in cold weather and the resulting gaseous microbubbles affect the fish the same way "the bends" affect divers.

We had a similar problem repeatedly in fish facilities in Oregon.
Our explanation of this is slightly different although the ultimate effect is the same.

Higher temperature water can hold less dissolved gas. Colder water can hold a lot more. Water under pressure (as in a pressurized water line; mine is at 80 psi) will force more gas into solution in the water. Water under less pressure will hold less gas in solution.

The water in the hot water heater will be able to hold less dissolved gas due to it high temperature. If it is really hot it will hold almost no dissolved gas. For example, when you boil water, before the water temperature gets to boiling, small bubbles are produced for a time and then stop. This is not some preliminary boiling of water (producing steam) but rather is the forcing of dissolved gasses out of solution in the water. This production of small bubbles stops when the dissolved gasses in the water are depleted. The water continues to heat up until it boils. The water in the hot water tank is under pressure, but we thought not enough to push the dissolved gasses back into solution.

During winter, cold water can get very cold and can hold huge amounts of dissolved gasses. When it is under pressure in the pipes additional gasses that might be in the pipes can also be forced into solution in the water in the pipes. 

Combining the hot and cold water together reduces the cold water temperature and letting the water out of the pipe (reducing the pressure on the water) work together to reduce the ability of the volume of water as a whole to maintain all of the dissolved gases it has in solution. It is therefore a supersaturated solution. As a result the dissolved gas comes out of solution spontaneously as small bubbles. The bubbles are most easily formed on certain solids, like container surfaces and in fish tissues which causes tissue damage resulting in symptoms of the bends.

Another common cause of supersaturated water is to have a leak in a pipe upstream of a pump. The upstream side is called the suction side because the pump is sucking in the water. Instead of water leaking out, air leaks into the pipe and goes to the pump. It a centrifugal pump housing (where the impeller spins) the water pressure is increased (this is how the pump moves the water) and the air leaking into the pipe can become supersaturated at the increased pressure and high turbulence in there before it goes to the tank. This is more likely to happen with larger pumps that can push water to higher levels (therefore produce higher pressures).

If you see bubbles on the container you are putting water into, the water could well be supersaturated.

This can be dealt with in several ways. The easiest involves increasing surface area, water turbulence, and aeration. All of these promote gas exchange so that the water is in equilibrium with the atmosphere it is in contact with.
This can be done by spraying the water instead of dripping it, greatly increasing aeration in a tank, reducing the amount and rate of water added to a tank (especially small tanks), or running the water over a wet dry filter (a 5' tall wet-dry filter can make the water completely at equilibrium with the atmosphere). Putting the water into a bag (or some other closeable container) 1/2 full of water and shaking it violently will equilibrate (de-supersaturate) it with the atmosphere in the container.

These tricks can also be used to control the dissolved gasses in water. For example, if oxygen free water is desired, water an be exposed to a pure nitrogen atmosphere under conditions favoring rapid gas exchange. Oxygen and other gasses will come out of the water and more nitrogen will go in.

[BallAquatics]

The easiest involves increasing surface area, water turbulence, and aeration.

That's exactly what I do with my tap water..... spray it into the aging vat, then it gets churned up by a HOT Magnum keeping it in motion.  By the time it get further agitated by the pump that delivers the water to the tanks it's good to go.

Our home is a low pressure system operating with a 30-50 PSI pump switch, and it still gets lots of trapped gasses.

Dennis

[b125killer]

I got another water container. this one is bigger then the last but still small. it holds 30 gallons. but with both going that's 50 gallons total.
I did a 50% water change but it wasn't aged water. Tomorrows water change will be aged water. I also added KanaPlexs and Bifuran+. I dosed the KanaPlexs for 40 gallons and the Bifuran for 30 gallons. It sucks that it has to be one of the big tanks. It's much cheaper to dose smaller tanks. I figured I was going to cure or kill them. I did test the water ammonia still reading 0, nitrite 0, and nitrate is at 40ppm. That's high! I think Jon might be right. I'm thinking it did a mini-cycle. I just didn't notice the ammonia spike. The nitrate shouldn't be that high if there wasn't the presents of ammonia. I think that's how it works right? I'm a little surprised that the rams and loaches don't seam to be affected by it. I always hear if the water goes bad the rams die first. The loaches are suppose to need pristine water too. I hope everyone makes it through this.

[LizStreithorst]

wow, that is high.  did you test any other tanks to make sure your test kit was giving correct results?

When I used the Kana/Furan mix I dosed both at full strength.

[PaulineMi]

Have you tested your source water in addition to doing as Liz stated?

Bill....excellent explanation.  I always thought it was the hot water that held the gasses.