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Started by Mugwump, September 18, 2018, 09:55:51 AM

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ghonk

Quote from: waterboy on September 20, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
My opinion is that the Bulgarian Green seems to exist although I have no Idea if it is on its own locus or is an allele on some other locus. At this point I am only interested in the Seal Point Phenotype.  I mated a Seal Point with a Blue Silver and got the expected results.  And Seal Point to Het bg seems to work out.  My thought at this point is that the bg gene might not express by its self, but just modifies the expression of other genes. I really don't have enough experience with it yet to be able to do any more than guess.

Yes I saw Raikos posts.  What I saw was "this fish is x/x" with no explanation on how he knew what the genetics were. He seemed to randomly mate his bg fish to anything and everything he could. I never saw any sort of a fry count to verify anything he did.  And I never saw any effort on his part to get a +/+,bg/bg,+/+ fish.

Thanks for your reply.

I guess you and Jon see his breeding and the results he posted differently then I do.
I personally think he did a fine job of trying to determine where the BG gene was located.




 

And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon

waterboy

Greg
There is one guy in England working with the Bulgarian Green Gene. He has posted here:
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations  and on the TAFII forum that doesn't exist anymore. As far as I know right now he is the only one besides Joel and myself that has them.

Dale

I'm not afraid of work.  I can lay down right next to it and go to sleep.

Mugwump

Quote from: waterboy on September 21, 2018, 12:10:25 PM
Greg
There is one guy in England working with the Bulgarian Green Gene. He has posted here:
http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/forum/showthread.php/911-Bulgarian-Green-Variations  and on the TAFII forum that doesn't exist anymore. As far as I know right now he is the only one besides Joel and myself that has them.

yup...same as the link I posted above...
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

waterboy

Duh, 10 minute memory. Maybe I should pay attention to what I am doing.........nah.
Dale

I'm not afraid of work.  I can lay down right next to it and go to sleep.

ghonk

#34
Here you go Jon,you mentioned before Raiko needed to ISOLATE the b/g gene.
I assume you mean a +/+-bg/bg fish,don't see how it could get any more isolated then that.


While checking out some of his videos I found this.
I  THOUGHT I remembered seeing he has those fish before,but wasn't sure. 


The video is (5 YEARS) old,to this is a been there done that thing in my mind.

He lists  them as (bg/bg)  and  (S/+ - bg/bg).
50%  wild blood from Manacapuru (F2 generation)


And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon

Mugwump

....without seeing the other siblings this is just a guess of a second cross of what?....S/+ bg/bg ghost?...they seem to have stripes?....a cross back to a wild parent obviously because he says 75% wild....if so, can't be bg/bg..,. because the wild parent could not have bg/bg....
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

ghonk

#36
Quote from: Mugwump on October 02, 2018, 09:30:10 AM
....without seeing the other siblings this is just a guess of a second cross of what?....S/+ bg/bg ghost?...they seem to have stripes?....a cross back to a wild parent obviously because he says 75% wild....if so, can't be bg/bg..,. because the wild parent could not have bg/bg....

Here is how he describes  them the video.

It says 50% not 75%.
Also the fish clearly look like BG fish,i doubt they would be that color in single dose.

He CLEARLY states what the fish are,just like he does in MANY of his posts at TAF.

He isn't just GUESSING what the genetics are.
He has done multiple generation crosses to confirm his breeding stock.

Early in his work with BG someone suggested  he try to get the gene accepted   by TAS. 
He said he had NO INTERESTED in trying  to do so.

The reason being of the way Ken's findings were originally  dismissed.


I can't think of ANYONE other the Ken, and Dr. Norton decades ago that has done as many crosses to confirm their findings.








And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon

Mugwump

Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: Mugwump on October 02, 2018, 09:30:10 AM
....without seeing the other siblings this is just a guess of a second cross of what?....S/+ bg/bg ghost?...they seem to have stripes?....a cross back to a wild parent obviously because he says 75% wild....if so, can't be bg/bg..,. because the wild parent could not have bg/bg....

Here is how he describes  them the video.

..I know.....but doesn't make sense....

Maybe Dale will see something that I'm not...... huh
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

ghonk

 When Raiko first exported  his fish a wanted some BAD,which included some non PB fish,unfortunately   I wasn't able to get some at that time.

I assumed they would be fairly easy to find at a later date,once people started breeding them,but now that's not the case.

Seems like most of the available stock from Raiko  are now the ones with PB.
They are great looking fish too,but would be much harder to work with if interested in working    STRICTLY BG fish,since you would need to breed PB out of the first,or possibly at the same time with some of your crosses.



   
And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon

Mugwump

Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 11:06:46 AM
When Raiko first exported  his fish a wanted some BAD,which included some non PB fish,unfortunately   I wasn't able to get some at that time.

I assumed they would be fairly easy to find at a later date,once people started breeding them,but now that's not the case.

Seems like most of the available stock from Raiko  are now the ones with PB.
They are great looking fish too,but would be much harder to work with if interested in working    STRICTLY BG fish,since you would need to breed PB out of the first,or possibly at the same time with some of your crosses.

Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......


Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

ghonk

"Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......"


Other then  SOME having PB how were they a hodge podge,they  were   ALL  BG fish as far as I know.

Do you consider any (PB) fish that aren't blue silvers (+/+-pb/pb) a hodge podge,and damn near impossible to work with,because they might have additional genes?


It's no different with the BG fish,if it is double dose BG then it's a BG fish.


Now i'm NOT talking about( BSP ) fish,just BG in general.



 
And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon

Mugwump

Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 01:57:57 PM
"Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......"


Other then  SOME having PB how were they a hodge podge,they  were   ALL  BG fish as far as I know.

Do you consider any (PB) fish that aren't blue silvers (+/+-pb/pb) a hodge podge,and damn near impossible to work with,because they might have additional genes?


It's no different with the BG fish,if it is double dose BG then it's a BG fish.


Now i'm NOT talking about( BSP ) fish,just BG in general.





.....you leave out that pb fish had counts and crosses done with counts when the gene was first recognized.....bg has had no such luxury....pb crosses can be done with the results predicted.....bg crosses have never been tracked to provide such expectations........bg crosses were done sure....but in a 'what if' environment in hopes of something new shedding light on it's  characteristics.....then phenotypes were made without any quantifying genetic back up.......Rob is working with them somewhat like Raiko did...but is getting counts to provide clues as to wtf he's actually got.....all which could have alleviated some of the issues folks are concerned about now if done from the get go.....

Isolating any gene can be a pain in the ass....ridding a line of a gene(s) can be a pain in the ass too......but it's a necessary evil to discover the truth about genes...the more genes present the more time consuming it can get.....it's bad enough with known genes, let alone an unknown gene....it seems not many folks want to take that on...or if they do....give up because of the intricacies involved....especially with multiple recessive genes in the mix.....
Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

ghonk

#42
Quote from: Mugwump on October 02, 2018, 02:46:17 PM
Quote from: ghonk on October 02, 2018, 01:57:57 PM
"Folks stopped working with them because the supposed bg stock that they received were a hodge podge of previous crosses and damn near impossible to breed them clean again......"


Other then  SOME having PB how were they a hodge podge,they  were   ALL  BG fish as far as I know.

Do you consider any (PB) fish that aren't blue silvers (+/+-pb/pb) a hodge podge,and damn near impossible to work with,because they might have additional genes?


It's no different with the BG fish,if it is double dose BG then it's a BG fish.


Now i'm NOT talking about( BSP ) fish,just BG in general.





.....you leave out that pb fish had counts and crosses done with counts when the gene was first recognized.....bg has had no such luxury....pb crosses can be done with the results predicted.....bg crosses have never been tracked to provide such expectations........bg crosses were done sure....but in a 'what if' environment in hopes of something new shedding light on it's  characteristics.....then phenotypes were made without any quantifying genetic back up.......Rob is working with them somewhat like Raiko did...but is getting counts to provide clues as to wtf he's actually got.....all which could have alleviated some of the issues folks are concerned about now if done from the get go.....

Isolating any gene can be a pain in the ass....ridding a line of a gene(s) can be a pain in the ass too......but it's a necessary evil to discover the truth about genes...the more genes present the more time consuming it can get.....it's bad enough with known genes, let alone an unknown gene....it seems not many folks want to take that on...or if they do....give up because of the intricacies involved....especially with multiple recessive genes in the mix.....

I can't remember if Ken did counts of his fish when he first started doing his crosses,but I assume he did.
But the PB gene wasn't recognized by TAS until MANY years later when Damen did   independent  counts.


Raiko may have did counts too,maybe detailed of maybe estimates.

I doubt he would go through the trouble of doing the crosses to almost  all if not all genotypes and  DISREGRARD what the results were as far as genotypes and/or phenotypes produced.
That would make no  sense and defeat the purpose of doing the crosses. 

He DID do multiple generation crosses with at least some of his fish to verify the genetics of his crosses.


Like I suggested before,contact him with the questions you have.
I would do it but possibly wouldn't ask the questions that you want to know answers to.


He's a member of Angelfish Enthusiasts and Angelfish Breeders.

As well  as having his own facebook page if you aren't already friends.






And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon

Mugwump

Yes, I worked with Damon when the counts were done.....I'm on the Stds Committee for TAS...

....the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with any work done with bg......nor it's path to being recognized....





Jon

?Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ?Wow! What a Ride!? ~ Hunter S. Thompson

ghonk

#44
Quote from: Mugwump on October 03, 2018, 04:34:24 AM
Yes, I worked with Damon when the counts were done.....I'm on the Stds Committee for TAS...

....the pb gene recognition has nothing to do with any work done with bg......nor it's path to being recognized....

Yes I know the pb gene  recognition   has nothing to do with  bg,didn't say it did.

As far as the BG gene being recognized,if you are talking about by TAS that's never going to happen.

Is TAS even active anymore,or relevant at this time.

Their forum sure is dead, gets less hits then the cubs did   in the last 3 games.  ;D



 
 
And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none.
I can read the writing on the wall.
Paul Simon