Little update on the angels

[Mugwump]

   I'll be moving the smaller Koi fry this morning, the current batch is wiggling off the slate...this batch wiggled at about 36 hrs or less....cool, a real healthy spawn...the one's being moved are eating 'egg foo young' already, and loving it....
   The black spawn, and Sta Isabel/Rio Negro, spawns will get separated and moved to their own 55's for better grow out. This will produce an almost immediate growth spurt...
   The F1 Manacapuru's have spawned the best sized and best looking batch so far. They really seem more interested in this one...fingers crossed....
   The cross pair of F1 Manacapuru/PB Silver ghost are on day three of their spawn...looking good..
   I moved a PB Zebra female over to the pairing tank, and she's taken up with one of Frank's 'het' everythings male....this should be interesting.....LOL...
   'Big daddy' Albino LF is sitting on his first batch of eggs in a cave....he finally found a female that he would allow in his cave...she's a 1/2 wild std.....this will help pump up my bn stock genes..
   The Albino Plats are beginning to get serious about pairing off....nice
   Frank gave me some veil 'het' everything to pair with my std fins....they're already showing signs of pairing up in a 110 gal...

Lots of other things going on too..... ....like just how drop dead gorgeous my hand selected Manacapuru crosses are getting....silver dollar+ sized and getting darker stripes and more green/blue glitter by the day....just freak'n amazing.....can't wait til they start to pair up....yep...and I'll have extras to share with you folks.... ....Frank. I'll definately have some for you....

[Frank The Plumber]

Are your F1 manas a true mana to mana cross or a hybrid of two wilds?

[Mugwump]

"Lots of other things going on too..... ....like just how drop dead gorgeous my hand selected Manacapuru crosses are getting....silver dollar+ sized and getting darker stripes and more green/blue glitter by the day....just freak'n amazing.....can't wait til they start to pair up....yep...and I'll have extras to share with you folks.... ....Frank. I'll definately have some for you.... "

If you're refering to the above..??....I selected from the F1 Manacapuru/Pb Silver ghost pair spawn. The other F1 spawn is the real deal tho.....F1 to F1....

[shatanka]

HOW EXCITING! You have so many pans on the fire, don't you! Those F1 Manacapuru's sound very interesting !!! Are they red shouldered Manacapuru?
The "just freak'n amazing...drop dead gorgeous hand selected Manacapuru crosses with darker stripes and more green/blue glitter by the day" also  sound reallllly beautiful!  If you are able to and it's not too much trouble, can you post pics of them?
Your black spawn must really be filling out now to with their fins and all..I bet they're turning out beautiful as well as the Koi.
Can't wait to see the Sta Isabel/Rio Negro's after a spurt of growth too!
It must be fun being into all of these...and the bn spawn too!  Congrats on all your work!

[Mugwump]

"Are they red shouldered Manacapuru?"

Yes M'am they are....the male more so than the female, he really got his 'red' on today when Jan was up close, and checking the slate....LOL...he wasn't a happy camper....

[PaulineMi]

Jon you're making it difficult to stick with wanting only the Sta Isabel/Rio Negro babies. Those Manacapuru sound like they'd also look pretty good in my "wilds" tank with the SI/RNs if you have a couple to spare.

I keep looking at my 75 gallon tank with two lone Peruvian crosses anxiously awaiting the day your angels are in there with them. 

BTW....I lightened up on the blackwater look of the tank. I just couldn't see the angels well enough to enjoy the nuances of the colors they express in clearer water.

[Frank The Plumber]

A few opinions. IMO's. It would be interesting to proof these out.
The red on the Manacapuru / Sta Isabella is not a gold related red. The red on the Mana will express in the presence of Pb/Pb. It will not make platinum. The red in the mana occurs on a different location than gold. Not the same location gold needs to be present upon when half black is expressing. The gold that shows in the guanine layer as bronze is in a different location than the location required for half black. Look closely at the multi hets and notice the bronze guanine. I have that on full expressers as well with a dose of visible Pb, a sort of corona of blue tint. I also have this on my newest lines of albino forms. Gold guanine with Pb. I have a hybrid cross of koi to blush marbles that I intensified the bronze guanine upon. These are going to be focused and bred for the bronze and hybridized to the half blacks and then the hybrid cracked to see what I get. If the red on the mana and sta's are not gold related we can load HB and red into the same fish. Happy time.

[Mugwump]

A few opinions. IMO's. It would be interesting to proof these out.
The red on the Manacapuru / Sta Isabella is not a gold related red. The red on the Mana will express in the presence of Pb/Pb. It will not make platinum. The red in the mana occurs on a different location than gold. Not the same location gold needs to be present upon when half black is expressing. The gold that shows in the guanine layer as bronze is in a different location than the location required for half black. Look closely at the multi hets and notice the bronze guanine. I have that on full expressers as well with a dose of visible Pb, a sort of corona of blue tint. I also have this on my newest lines of albino forms. Gold guanine with Pb. I have a hybrid cross of koi to blush marbles that I intensified the bronze guanine upon. These are going to be focused and bred for the bronze and hybridized to the half blacks and then the hybrid cracked to see what I get. If the red on the mana and sta's are not gold related we can load HB and red into the same fish. Happy time.

If this is true then a portion of the 'het' everythings (HE) spawns will produce some answers, right?

[Frank The Plumber]

They already do.

The multi hets were a cross between a Gibbs albino pb/pb and a Madetto line half black blush.

The Madetto line HB blush had a significant amount of blue patching and some minor recessive gold patching. The Gibbs albino seems to have had a recessive gold gene.
When mixed with blush this blue tint in the guanine layer seems to go gold bronze.
If you look carefully at the crest area on the dorsal of your multi hets you will notice a minor aura of bronze and or you may also notice a bit of the guanine type of iridescent bronzing. Technically that bronze is gold as on a GM blush. It seems that by being in the guanine it attacxhes to a different location and is allowed to remain even on a half black fish as I have four fully dressed adult HB veils that show this bronze. Gold and HB being same loci should have no gold at all. This an only mean that it exists on another location in this case? By focusing the bronze much as the paraiba has been focused we may be able to build a HB gold et bronze or by using the sta red or mana red we could focus that red and pop it onto a HB. We would need to cross into an expressing HB with a true F1 mana. Raise out the hybrids and do a cross between the hybrids to refocus the dosings as two of the red and two of the HB. If the red and blue can co exist we could build a HB Pb/Pb Red shoulder.......boomba. he he he. Hb bronze, Hb red glitter.

[b125killer]

Sounds like you have alot going on Jon. It sounds interesting with the crosses that frank is thinking of too. I would like to see a  HB Pb/Pb Red shoulder. that should be a  gorgeous angel.

[Mugwump]

Yes, Gold and HB are on their own loci, but the HB seems to be a modifier then to the HB.  I think this is the bronze that your seeing......interesting...

[shatanka]

"Are they red shouldered Manacapuru?"

Yes M'am they are....the male more so than the female, he really got his 'red' on today when Jan was up close, and checking the slate....LOL...he wasn't a happy camper....

AWESOME!  I also would love to have a few of these! I have a wild caught Manacapuru that isn't expressing, might never for that matter ( I was told by the importer it was from Rio Manacapuru, not Lago Manacapuru  where the red expression comes out more... probably from the deeper water?) . He/she is now looking a lot like the ones that "hombre" has but has a lot of blue glitter..very cool seeing this on a wild fish knowing it wasn't influenced by the Phillipean blue gene or any others. It's still young and maturing. But, it sure would be nice to get some that do express that red shoulder to go along with him.