Somehow I managed to make tank space to separate my good pair of half blacks to a 60 wide love nest amd a nice pair of Blue Silver pearl scales to a 29 gallon love nest. The blue silvers are wanting to spawn and the Half Blacks spawn at every opportunity. I have taken the first step in a long journey to making half black blue pearl scales. I will produce a ton of fish with little apparent value along the way.
It's a blast having the some of the Angelfish world beating my door down for half blacks but the pair is so prolific that I will saturate the market with them and that will be a bummer. It will be for more satisfying in the long run to make something that nobody else has made.
Mug, can you tell me what what my end product will look like in Greek? I think it something akin to HB/HB xx/xx ps/ps but as you know I don't speak Greek well and when I try I speak it with an almost unintelligible accent.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 19, 2017, 05:42:19 PM
Somehow I managed to make tank space to separate my good pair of half blacks to a 60 wide love nest amd a nice pair of Blue Silver pearl scales to a 29 gallon love nest. The blue silvers are wanting to spawn and the Half Blacks spawn at every opportunity. I have taken the first step in a long journey to making half black blue pearl scales. I will produce a ton of fish with little apparent value along the way.
It's a blast having the some of the Angelfish world beating my door down for half blacks but the pair is so prolific that I will saturate the market with them and that will be a bummer. It will be for more satisfying in the long run to make something that nobody else has made.
Mug, can you tell me what what my end product will look like in Greek? I think it something akin to HB/HB xx/xx ps/ps but as you know I don't speak Greek well and when I try I speak it with an almost unintelligible accent.
h/h pb/pb p/p
yes, of course, everything is recessive so should be written in small letters and used HB for h and ps for p and forgot totally about the pb. Why is ++ never stated? Doesn't ++ mean Silver in English?
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 19, 2017, 06:13:23 PM
yes, of course, everything is recessive so should be written in small letters and used HB for h and ps for p and forgot totally about the pb. Why is ++ never stated? Doesn't ++ mean Silver in English?
....the +/+ is used for silver/wild....but not often anymore with so many just using it to strengthen their lines..
...you will tho see +/S..+/g..+/pb....etc ..all the time...
With Discus they say that if you put all the fancy strains of Discus together in perfect conditions and allowed them to breed at random you would end up with a bunch of Turks. With Angels would it be the same but you would end up with silvers? All the beautiful wild Angels I see are silvers.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 19, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
With Discus they say that if you put all the fancy strains of Discus together in perfect conditions and allowed them to breed at random you would end up with a bunch of Turks. With Angels would it be the same but you would end up with silvers? All the beautiful wild Angels I see are silvers.
no......just a bunch of 'hets'......and by chance the regular genotypes....but if breeding at random...they would just fuel the cycle again...and again....
..the same with Discus....you can't end up with 'one thing' by openly breeding everything...
I don't know why genetics is so over my head when I understand could might work for me on a visceral level. No matter...
I will now ask you a big favor because I know how much typing it took you when I asked something like this once before. Please wait to answer until you're in the mood. Please tell me in Greek what my first cross between my half blacks and silver blue pearl scales will be and the percentages of each genotype. I know I'm in for a long hard slog. I'd like to have an idea of how long and hard a slog reaching my goal will be.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 19, 2017, 07:50:18 PM
I don't know why genetics is so over my head when I understand could might work for me on a visceral level. No matter...
I will now ask you a big favor because I know how much typing it took you when I asked something like this once before. Please wait to answer until you're in the mood. Please tell me in Greek what my first cross between my half blacks and silver blue pearl scales will be and the percentages of each genotype. I know I'm in for a long hard slog. I'd like to have an idea of how long and hard a slog reaching my goal will be.
I'll look it over again when I'm awake.... ;)
h/h - Halfblack
pb/pb - p/p - Blue Silver Pearlscale
100.0% +/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver
..........
+/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver
+/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver
6.25% h/h - +/pb - +/p - Halfblack
3.125% h/h - pb/pb - +/p - Blue Halfblack....***
6.25% +/h - +/pb - p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125% +/h - pb/pb - Blue Silver
3.125% +/h - p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125% h/h - +/pb - Halfblack
3.125% +/p - Silver
1.5625% h/h - Halfblack
12.5% +/h - +/pb - +/p - Silver
3.125% pb/pb - +/p - Blue Silver
6.25% +/h - +/pb - Silver
3.125% +/pb - Silver
1.5625% p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125% +/h - pb/pb - p/p - Blue Silver Pearlscale
1.5625% +/+ - Silver
1.5625% pb/pb - p/p - Blue Silver Pearlscale
1.5625% h/h - p/p - Halfblack Pearlscale
3.125% h/h - +/pb - p/p - Halfblack Pearlscale...***
6.25% +/h - +/p - Silver
3.125% +/h - Silver
6.25% +/pb - +/p - Silver
6.25% +/h - pb/pb - +/p - Blue Silver
3.125% +/pb - p/p - Silver Pearlscale
3.125% h/h - +/p - Halfblack
1.5625% h/h - pb/pb - p/p - Blue Halfblack Pearlscale...***
1.5625% pb/pb - Blue Silver
1.5625% h/h - pb/pb - Blue Halfblack...***
Good luck picking out the ones you want. You almost would have to grow out the whole batch to differentiate between some of the different phenotypes, especially if some of the half-blacks didn't turn. Here is a place that has a calculator you can play with. Also gives a description of the various known genes.
https://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=genetics_calculator
Learning the genetics is part of the fun of raising Angelfish for me. There is possibly one new gene not described there, that is the Bulgarian Green gene. From that list you can see why so few people have blue half-blacks. If you think the half-blacks sell fast on Aquabid think how fast the Blue Half-Blacks would sell. You would have to stand on the front porch with a shotgun to keep people away.
..just click 'angelfish' here......the top five threads are genetics, etc.......
Yes. Good to review once in a while. A punnet square is easy to do in your head for each locus, but multiple loci take the calculator to keep everything sorted out.
The biggest problem that I run into is telling which ones are which. In your list above for example, you can't tell a h/h - +/pb - +/p - Halfblack from a h/h - +/pb - Halfblack without growing them up and doing test crosses. Of course once you get some h/h - p/p - pb/pb Halfblacks you are all set as they will breed true because of the recessive genes.
Quote from: waterboy on November 20, 2017, 02:40:08 PM
Yes. Good to review once in a while. A punnet square is easy to do in your head for each locus, but multiple loci take the calculator to keep everything sorted out.
The biggest problem that I run into is telling which ones are which. In your list above for example, you can't tell a h/h - +/pb - +/p - Halfblack from a h/h - +/pb - Halfblack without growing them up and doing test crosses. Of course once you get some h/h - p/p - pb/pb Halfblacks you are all set as they will breed true because of the recessive genes.
yup, that can be the tough part.....I put *** on the results that I figured might be best to select for.....a couple are obvious, but some will take a sharp eye.....those were best for crosses.. huh
I know that it will be a long hard slog and will involve a good bit of luck. From the first generation I will only be able to select based on overall conformation. Nobody will be interested in buying fry that are simply silvers although my LFS will buy some. I'll end up doing the hard thing with most of them. I wonder if I could put them in the blender and cook them up to use as dog an addition to the dog's kibble?
I still want to give it a go. Thanks for your guidance, Muggers.
The good half black pair spawned yesterday and are guarding a ton of eggs. The silver pearl scale pair have been very stressed in their love nest since I moved them. I don't know what's up with that. They were pecking and cleaning and driving the other fish off when I moved them huh
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 21, 2017, 03:26:27 PM
The silver pearl scale pair have been very stressed in their love nest since I moved them. I don't know what's up with that. They were pecking and cleaning and driving the other fish off when I moved them huh
I've noticed that too. Some pairs will pair up, clean and defend, and when put in their own tank suddenly decide they hate each other. And some pairs it doesn't bother at all, they will just go right ahead and continue spawning. Never have figured out what makes the difference. I now try to let them actually spawn before I move them, but that doesn't always happen.
I took some adult Blue Silvers to the LFS Monday. I just called Ken and he agreed to swap them out with me for some adults that will sell for him better than these. The general fish buying public thinks that silvers are a snore. They don't even notice the blue and the pearl scaling.
I'll go in tomorrow and make the swap. I have a good pair of silver blues but all the rest of my pearl scales are ghosts. This project is hard enough as it is without me introducing the stripe-less gene. I may not be fluent in Greek but I have good instincts.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 21, 2017, 03:26:27 PM
The good half black pair spawned yesterday and are guarding a ton of eggs. The silver pearl scale pair have been very stressed in their love nest since I moved them. I don't know what's up with that. They were pecking and cleaning and driving the other fish off when I moved them huh
I've found on pairs like that ..it sometimes helps if you bring a third angel along temporarily....a male.....then the true pair will bond against the 'intruder;.....it doesn't take long either..just a few minutes usually....have a net ready to rescue the boy tho.... |^|......if she picks the intruder, take him out anyway to keep the pair you've chosen....things will settle down...
I've, also, put a pair in the same 5gal bucket before introducing them to their new home for 10-15mins.....then put the female in first.....then she only gets to choose that male when he's added after a few minutes more time lapses....
My theory...it's all about the female choosing.....works here.. :)
When I write about this project I should only put it here, but I blathered on about this somewhere else and I don't know where.
Mug says that I should use my straight blue silvers to breed to the half blacks. I agreed, but I'd already put a male blue pearl scale ghost and a female pearl scale female and laid a ton of eggs. Today they have a ton of wigglers. I have a feeling that they will raise them and be protective parents. I'll post a pic of the parents when I drain enough tea water from the tank and replace it with normal aged tap.
Quote from: LizStreithorst on November 29, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
When I write about this project I should only put it here, but I blathered on about this somewhere else and I don't know where.
Mug says that I should use my straight blue silvers to breed to the half blacks. I agreed, but I'd already put a male blue pearl scale ghost and a female pearl scale female and laid a ton of eggs. Today they have a ton of wigglers. I have a feeling that they will raise them and be protective parents. I'll post a pic of the parents when I drain enough tea water from the tank and replace it with normal aged tap.
My thinking was the blue silver wouldn't have the pearl to start with....avoiding any fry count issues that the pearls sometimes are known to cause......pearl can be crossed in later after a nice clean line is established.... huh
If I don't do it now I will loose the PS gene because I'm not breeding for it. The fish are good and it they raise that multitude of fry, it proves that they are genetically strong. The non pearl scale are also very blue and what to breed . I can't give them the chance now. They might produce a ton of wigglers and raise them and I'll have no choice but to toss all the free loaders.
I have to always keep my goal in mind. I don't want to just crank them out any more. It's not that satisfying. I want to make something unusual and what I make needs to be strong. I think that these pearls scales are strong.
I know that I'll end up with all blue silvers and that I'll have to be real lucky to choose the right fish to breed. My goal is almost impossible. Sp what? This is my hobby and can do as I choose.
I have 8 of the Blue Pearlscales if your every need to look for some fry. Mine are just coming to age where I think I saw two pairing off this week.I will take a photo of them when I pull a pair and place them in a 29 gallon tank, right now they have been growing out in a 180 gallon with my 10 Platinum Superveils.
Yes, George, I want to see.,
...I want to see too, George....may I come visit you one day?...
Quote from: Ron Sower on November 29, 2017, 09:37:16 PM
...I want to see too, George....may I come visit you one day?...
....you guys are close ....that would be great if you could meet up |^|
Ron you can come by on a weekend if you like. I have met Ron at on of the fish meetings a while back in the summer.
....sounds good...I'll holler at you to set it up on a day when I come up that way for a meeting...okay with you?
LizStreithorst - good luck with your project and please keep us posted. I'm working towards a similar goal so maybe we can collaborate at some point. If you can get the pearlscale and stripeless in the line that would be fantastic. Good luck.
The project is on hold because the half blacks have gone on strike. I haven't given up on it, though.
Sorry to hear that. I'm sure they will pick back up again for you. Keep us posted. I will do the same. Thanks.
Suddenly and for no apparent reason the original pair got in the mood and I moved them to a love nest. A pair of those stupid stripeless half blacks of mind decided to get it on so I gave them the love nest next door. I sure hope they raise their kids.
that's great news, congrats. glad they're starting to cooperate for you again.
I won't count my half blacks until they free swim. All I have now is eggs. I insist that my pairs raise their own kids. It's one of my few idiosyncratic rules huh It will be stressful seeing how things progress. I always hope for the best but expect the worst. Keeping your fingers crossed won't do any harm ;)
..good luck !....
I've had a couple of spawns but so far no joy. My guys are becoming sexually mature and pairing off. I have two pairs in love nests, one pair just teases me by they're blatant flirting, but I have never seen the first egg. The second spawned once and immediately turned around and ate their eggs. To more pairs were pecking at cones this afternoon. I made room for them by evicting a couple of other fish from their breeding tanks due to lack of action.
The best news is that one of my Silver Half Blacks has paired one of my inbred stripeless ones. I expect the eggs will be eaten but this won't be the last time they spawn so I'll give them some time. I donno if I'll ever be able to get blue and pearl scale bred into them but in the mean time I want to keep their pool of traits diverse.